Keep or not to keep

[Dan72]

So this could spark some debate...:rolleyes:, Steve and I were talking about wc snakes the other day and my situation is what it is, albino plus wild equals dead snake, so I brought her in and hopefully something good comes out of that. Short term an amazing snake gets to survive, long term, who knows. I am of the opinion that wild animals should stay wild animals, but we have all seen on this forum time and time again what a wild caught snake introduced into the breeding line has done in producing some amazing looking babies. Some snakes, most snakes, in the area you call home are your everyday run of the mill snake. Dime a dozen, you see them all the time. Most people have no problem picking them up, checking them out, and sending them on their way. But what about that special find, the exception to the norm? Do you bring them in? When do you know you have such a snake? This just happened yesterday, my son comes up with a young snake in hand. Two years old, less, and the thing I notice right away is the stripe on his back. It is the brightest orange I've ever seen. I'm radix country so I see yellow and some dull orange/dirty orange but part of what also made this guy stand out is the fact that the rest of the scales on this snake were so dark they appeared or they were black. All black, bright orange middle stripe. Never saw the likes before. My son and I enjoyed him for awhile and then took him out to the back of the property and let him go. So its not until later in the night when I can't get that bright orange snake out of my head (and no pics:mad:), what if that was something special? What if that snake is the game changer the hobby and snake lovers have been waiting for? We can't keep them all...:rolleyes:, but how do you know when you shouldn't let it go?

[guidofatherof5]

I think that becomes a issue for each individual person to decide.
I come across hundreds of radixes in my neighborhood and keep very few of them. This year it has been two. A male with a very nice orange dorsal and a red female. Both will contribute to ongoing breeding projects on the Ranch.
Many of the CB morphs that are available started with a WC snake.
Last year I acquired two WC albinos.

[Dan72]

Wish I had that snake in my hand again just to share a pic and get your opinion on special or not?? Darn.

[ConcinusMan]

So this could spark some debate...:rolleyes:, Steve and I were talking about wc snakes the other day and my situation is what it is, albino plus wild equals dead snake

Why would you say that? How do you think these morphs (and normals) got into captivity in the first place? Most didn't just pop up in some random litter, they were found in the wild, some of them as healthy adults, then bred in captivity. T -albino plains for example, WC in Iowa, T+ found in nebraska, thats how they got those state names. The originals were wild.

Until 2010, there was only one known blue phase T. s. concinnus in captivity, over in Europe and it was WC. Hardly anyone but Oregon locals even knew they existed, let alone seen one. So naturally when I discovered them in the wild, I brought some home and sold several probably unrelated pairs to breeders. My main goal was to establish captive breeding for the hobby/pet trade, not to make money. With that said, I limited my take and now Don has a gravid female and hopefully the first captive litter will be here this year. Nothing wrong with that IMO.

personally I keep any "special" snake i find such as melanistic, erythristic, stripeless, etc. If they don't prove to adapt well to captivity within a few weeks, I have no choice. I release them.

As to the question of what is special and what is not, that's largely a matter for the beholder to decide.

[EasternGirl]

I think it is one of those things of balance. We can't just go out and snatch every garter out of their natural habitat...it isn't fair to the snakes or the environment, but we are garter enthusiasts...I would be lying if I said I was never going to take a garter out of the wild. I try to make judgement calls...if I think the snake would do better in the wild and taking it out of it's natural habitat would disrupt things...I leave it be. If I found a particularly beautiful or rare species...yes, I would probably bring it home...as long as it wasn't endangered or anything like that. Both of my wild caught easterns were found on my property and were in situations in which they would not have survived if left outside.

[InsanePirateDragon]

It really is a matter of opinion I believe.

I've caught quite a few snakes that I show off a couple of moments to usually show its a harmless snake and let it go on its merry way such a a ringneck I found then released late summer.

I know my WC boy came to me torn up and it was really how his personality was that I decided to keep him. And it did make me ffeel better with his unusal coloring started coming in.

[chris-uk]

It's an academic question for those of us that may only ever see CB garters.
If I were in a position to go herping and potentially find something unusual I would probably take an approach similar to Steve and Richard - if I found something different which I thought would be good to breed I'd keep it unless it didn't adjust to captivity quickly, if it was unusual I'd keep it long enough to photograph and work out if it was of any scientific/breeding interest. If I was like Steve, and living in the proverbial candy shop, I expect I'd gorge myself then be disciplined enough to take the odd one or two.

[ConcinusMan]

Let's not forget that WC snakes can be just as "good" as CB or in fact "better" due to their hardiness and genetic "fitness". Still, certain protocol should be followed. Strict quarantine of 60-90 days so the snake can be observed for health issues which may not be apparent at first. During that time, you will be able to determine if the snake is settling in and accepting food. I keep freshly WC snakes in an entirely different room and always sanitize hands / utinsils before entering the room where known healthy long term WC and CB snakes are housed.

Once the snake seems to be healthy, eating well, etc. I medicate them for tapeworms and nematodes automatically since i do not have the luxury of a fecal exam by a vet. WC snakes get a bad rap because people selling them on the internet dirt cheap don't bother doing these things. All WC I give away or sell will be well screened unless I tell you otherwise.

Many people don't realize that I don't make any money from WC snakes, although i don't judge people who do. i just get back some of what i've spent in gasoline (petro) and other care-related expenses. People also don't realize that i end up releasing a majority of them after a period of time in captivity. many just dont "make the cut" to be captives. i will normally only keep or ship out the ones that do.

if that means i have to release that "lifer" morph, then thats what will be done. last year i found a very blue northwestern (lifer) but it wouldnt eat and lost a lot of weight in 3 weeks. broke my heart, but i let it go.

[Eight]

I've been wondering about this myself a lot. I think it all comes down to if your taking specimens that won't affect the local population. To take specimens and endanger the local population should be a crime. Saying that I have been toying with the idea of locating a decent population of local grass snakes, taking a couple to breed and then releasing them at the same time the following year, but only if it won't effect the local population.

[EasternGirl]

Which is pretty much what I was saying about disturbing the environment. How it's a balance. If you are going to disrupt the local population, or the snake seems to be doing perfectly fine and is happy in his natural environment or doesn't adjust to captivity well...these are all things we have to consider. It's being a conscious herper and enthusiast.

[Steveo]

I keep a few. My education is in biology and I'm a volunteer observer for the Colorado Division of Wildlife. I see some snakes on bike rides and I see about the same number when I'm herping -.- but when I do find them I catch them, mark the location with my GPS, record the weather, and take a few pictures of the area. Then I take them home, ID them (if I didn't immediately know), weigh them, sex them, and report everything to the CDOW. CDOW keeps a database on the web of all observations, so I can see who is finding what and where. I don't go hunting for certain herps, I just look at the local parks and such close to home for whatever I can find. If I happen to be going somewhere (like a camping trip), the database helps me to know what is locally common and what is not - I usually look for herps that haven't been reported but should be in the area. Lots of people report amphibians but not many mess with snakes.

Usually I keep them for a night for observation and release them back where I caught them (using the GPS) the next day. A couple weeks ago I found a really pretty adult male gopher snake. None had been previously reported in the area, so I put him back. I don't know what the local population is like but I don't want to mess it up if it's just a few individuals. There are lots of groundhogs in the area so they should be thriving, but I just don't know.

This past weekend was cool and wet so I didn't have much hope of finding anything, but I found a female wandering garter under a log that I had already checked (with no success) a few times the previous week. Wanderings are very common in the area and this one doesn't seem to be very flighty or bitey, so I'm going to keep her. She slammed a f/t mouse a few hours after I brought her home and I think she might be gravid; if that's the case, I'll probably keep a few and then release her and the remaining youngin's.

If people are going to keep any WC snakes, just remember to quarantine them for 3-6 months. I quarantine essentially forever; my CB snakes never go near anything involved with the WC snakes. (I'll use old CB equipment on the WC snakes, but never the reverse.) I'd suggest treating for mites and worms if you really intend to keep it regardless of whether they have symptoms. I'm not going to treat this wandering chemically because she's probably gravid, but I still have to use a separate set of everything and wash my hands profusely so I don't transfer anything to my healthy CB snakes. I try to avoid even dealing with both sets in the same day.

[EasternGirl]

What a great job you have. People discuss winning the lottery...and how they would use the money. Many people say they would never work again...sit on the beach, etc. I would go back to school and get a doctorate in zoology, or biology. I would do something in which I could then work with herps in the wild. That or become a herp vet. I like your philosophy to herping. As far as keeping WC snakes...we always recommend a strict quarantine like you are describing, on the forum. We recommend that for WC snakes and any snake bought in a store or from an unknown breeder. We recommend a fecal test, check for mites, keeping the snake in a separate room, washing hands before and after handling, and not cross contaminating anything used with the new snake and other snakes in the house.

[ConcinusMan]

Personally, I've never found a wild garter snake with mites. Plenty of pet store ones though. Found ticks on gopher snakes though, and on lizards in the Southwest.


I've been wondering about this myself a lot. I think it all comes down to if your taking specimens that won't affect the local population. To take specimens and endanger the local population should be a crime. Saying that I have been toying with the idea of locating a decent population of local grass snakes, taking a couple to breed and then releasing them at the same time the following year, but only if it won't effect the local population.

we can never really know if there is an effect or not but i suspect that the population will do just fine in spite of me having taken a few. rounding up every snake i can find just to sell them however, is another matter. unfortunately, in some states this is legal.

But virtually all wild garters carry nematodes and/or tapeworms so i do deworm them regardless. They do much better in the long term if i do.

[Invisible Snake]

Personally, I've never found a wild garter snake with mites. Plenty of pet store ones though. Found ticks on gopher snakes though, and on lizards in the Southwest.

But virtually all wild garters carry nematodes and/or tapeworms so i do deworm them regardless. They do much better in the long term if i do.

How do you deworm them?

[Steveo]

What a great job you have. People discuss winning the lottery...and how they would use the money. Many people say they would never work again...sit on the beach, etc. I would go back to school and get a doctorate in zoology, or biology. I would do something in which I could then work with herps in the wild. That or become a herp vet.

It's easy to romanticise about biology but the reality is that the fun, popular jobs don't pay much and are hard to get due to high demand. My volunteer "work" and my own personal recreation are the extent to which I really use my education. My first job out of college was sewer work :P I had to cut off all of my long hair.

[ConcinusMan]

In the past I used pyrantel pamoate in combination with Praziquantel in dry form. I had to weigh the dosage according to the weight of the snake with a special micro gram scale, and put it in a piece of food. it was a pain.

Now i have those drugs in liquid form. got them from a horse keeper. now i measure the dose with a 1/2 ml syringe in .01 ml increments and inject it into a pinky or piece of fish. Correct dosages for reptiles can be found online. two weeks later, i do it again. a week after that, i follow up with a bird/reptile probiotc.

one drug is broad spectrum, the other is specifically for tape worms.