And then there was a new morph?

[reptileparadise]

Okay, here goes… First something about the background of the breeders...


Female lineage
In 2005 our only wildcaught female parietalis gave birth to a wonderful litter of 26 perfect young. They grew rapidly and almost all got sold. We held back one male as we were in desperate need of an extra male. This male was from that moment on called `F1` (Remember this name…)
In 2009, F1 was mated with a very dark, normal female which we bought as a young male (but obviously proved out otherwise…). Later on, we realized that due to the wrong sex, the bad state the girl was in, and the colors, that she might be a wildcaught female as well. This female is called DONKER. In short, F1 X DONKER which then created a beautifull litter that was almost entirely sold. We held back one female, a sister to fawn (@ Greg) which we then called PARIETALIS HOLDBACK


Male lineage
In 2002, we got a high red female Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis which had a special look to her. Her belly was orange/black and the amount of red on her back was amazing. We felt we had to do something and started linebreeding with the reddest males possible. She was bought in a petstore and I (Sjoerd) later started working for the wholesale that supplied this petstore. All animals supplied where wildcaught! In 2010, we bred F1 to this female and got a litter of 56! Of this litter, we held back one animal. VERY red and with an orange belly once again…. We called this guy Arthur
This spring, we’ve bred ARTHUR (cb2010) X PARIETALIS HOLDBACK (cb2009) and got following results
18 live, healthy looking young
4 slugs
1 two headed, deformed young
Of the 18 live young, 13 appear normal/ high red and five of them appeared to be silverish/anerythristic….


Have a look at the photo’s and see for yourself… There is NO known anery lineage in this breeding and by the looks of it, they don’t look like normal anery’s…. Perhaps some kind of hypo anery (due to the high red/hypo breedings?????)
See for yourself and we hope to update /testbreed this lineage in a year or 2/3….
No worries, it’s a bit a babyshed… gone now...


http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/Mercury_6.jpg


http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/mercury_5.jpg


http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/Mercury_3.jpg


http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/mercury_2.jpg

[BUSHSNAKE]

you familiar with the anery type b(missing reds and yellows,aka charcoal) in cornsnakes? I think thats very similar to what you may have.

[ssssnakeluvr]

thats similar to Scott's "golden" red side. really nice! Scott's came from a w/c female I got in Kansas...have seen a couple with no red in Kansas.....I really need to get back there :cool:

[reptileparadise]

Cheers guys!

Yeah, familiar with those and might indeed be some kind of anery type B animal..... So far, not quite like Scotts golden red sided as the dorsal is completely different. But, only thing we can do now is wait and see how they will look in a few sheds time....

Got a feeling they will get lighter/brighter..... as with all our parietalis so far :)

[ConcinusMan]

I'm thinking "b" anery myself. you can even see where red should be on the sides, but instead you get light spots as if pigment is missing. erythrin (red) pigment doesn't always appear red. it can include yellow/orange which is missing from the stripes. it doesn't have to be simple recessive or dom/codom either. it can be polygenic. i know that when i breed concinnus' from different locales together, polymorphism produces surprising results and often i end up with young that look different from snakes found at either location.

[guidofatherof5]

Great looking snakes.

[Invisible Snake]

That would be awesome if you produced a new morph :)

[EasternGirl]

They are very pretty.

[BUSHSNAKE]

you got 5? if you ever part with one id be interested.

[Chondro788]

Very cool!!!

[kueluck]

Reminds me of chocolate milk. Nice.

[chris-uk]

They remind me of Steve's B&W radix line. And of they darken they aren't a million miles from our WC parietalis (Nobby).

Nice work Sjoerd, this is another thread where I'm looking forward to seeing updates as these guys grow.

[ConcinusMan]

They remind me of Steve's B&W radix line.

Me too, but Steve's are hardly a "line" just yet.;)

I speculate that in his case, and these, that it's polygenic. Bring together certain unexpressed genes in just the right combination and specific order in the DNA sequence and viola, together they become expressed in the outward appearance.

[Dan72]

WOW:eek:!! That snake is a beauty. So as far as projects go, (Joe, Don, Jeff, other forum breeders). How many years out are these cuties from being available if the right formula for producing them has been stumbled upon? Very cool snake.

[ConcinusMan]

If it is polygenic, the "right formula" may never be known. ;)

You may have all the right cards in the deck to produce a royal flush but that doesn't mean you will deal that hand to any one player. Make sense?

[Dan72]

Sjored.... I agree with Chris if you think testing out this line might be something 2/3 years in the making please keep all of us updated. With the progress of these little ones for sure. Amazing:D. What are the sex of the 5 you have? And do you now repeat the same combo next year (mother/father) and hope for same results. Because the offspring (original 5) won't come into the picture for years, right???

[Dan72]

If it is polygenic, the "right formula" may never be known. ;)

So if this was "dumb" luck we could never see these snakes again? Just these 5. In no way am I saying that any humans that had a hand in producing these beauties are "dumb", just the luck of it having happened only to never do so again:mad:. Not fair.....

[ConcinusMan]

So if this was "dumb" luck we could never see these snakes again?

I hate to be a pessimist, but yeah, that's a possibility. Still worth "testing out" for sure.

[Dan72]

[QUOTE=ConcinnusMan;209389]Me too, but Steve's are hardly a "line" just yet.;)

Steve, you have a B&W radix "line". Are there pics in a post somewhere:rolleyes:......

[ConcinusMan]

It was my understanding that there was one litter with a few of them in it which popped up at random, just like with these. That is not a "line"

[guidofatherof5]

[QUOTE=ConcinnusMan;209389]Me too, but Steve's are hardly a "line" just yet.;)

Steve, you have a B&W radix "line". Are there pics in a post somewhere:rolleyes:......


http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/8336-b-w-radixes.html

[chris-uk]

I'm a little more optimistic, for both this new potential morph and three B&W radix. Both need to be proved out, but when there are multiple births of a new phenotype in a single litter the odds are better that it's a heritable trait. We'll just have to be patient and hope for good news over the next few years.
If only they bred like fruit flies, it would make new discoveries quicker to work with. But that would kill the excitement, right!

[reptileparadise]

First of all, there´s no longer five of these beauties…. Its six now :) Apparantly, the female had one up her sleeve and it turned out to be silvery as well!
So, total score is first litter of ’09 girl, containing 19 healthy young of which 6 silvery/anery.

We noticed (even though they hide a lot, being only hours old…) we noticed there is some variation in colors, ranging from truly silverish to a bit more browned out.

Look forward to the next two months and 4/6 sheds to see how things will turn out!
Like Chris said, we´re a bit more optimistic about genetics. Due to the fact that its not a one of a kind animal (but 6 of a kind, in one litter), we’re expecting it will turn out recessive. But then again, we’ve decided not to speculate to much about this and just enjoy the creatures on their own.


@Steve/ConcinnusMan;
Indeed, this is not a line. This is a mutation that needs to be proven out… Our line is a high red line which was created by just about a decade of linebreeding…, this is random, but might be bred into our line to reduce the black pigment in the silverish animals...

@Dan72/Chris; Yes, it will be test bred. We will be making the exact same pairing next year which will reveal A LOT about the genetics in our opinion. If more pop up next year, we might have a nice recessive trait on our hands, which will be proven the year after (hopefully) when/if we can put a male back to its mom….

We will be holding back the entire clutch for at least two more years until we’ve seen how/what the males produce when bred back to their mom.
Will decide what to do from there on…..
Now, to enjoy, watch and be excited!

[Invisible Snake]

Wow your going to breed the males with their mom?

[ConcinusMan]

when there are multiple births of a new phenotype in a single litter the odds are better that it's a heritable trait.

oh, i agree. there is high potential.

[chris-uk]

Wow your going to breed the males with their mom?

There's not a lot of choice when you are trying to prove a recessive trait. Breeding a male back with the mother is a better option than breeding two siblings.

[Invisible Snake]

There's not a lot of choice when you are trying to prove a recessive trait. Breeding a male back with the mother is a better option than breeding two siblings.

Thanks for letting me know :). I still have a lot to learn about genetics.

[reptileparadise]

Yup, I agree with Chris....

To put it simple, you could look at it like this....
When breeding siblings to each other, both are carying the same genetic information received from the father and from their mother.

When breeding a son back to its mom, the son is carrying the genes received from mom, plus genes received from dad (who is normaly not related to the mother, thus having ca. 50% unrelated genes).
In this case, both father and mother have the same father (F1), but still there's a bigger unrelated factor...

[ConcinusMan]

Well explained.

[Dan72]

Out of the six how many males/females? If the plan is to put the males back to the mother, would females when they're ready go back to the father, or is this never done and there will just be new plans for the girls?:cool: I know a good looking snake when I see one but getting a grip on how all this breeding and genetics stuff works is going to take some homework.

[ConcinusMan]

Out of the six how many males/females? If the plan is to put the males back to the mother, would females when they're ready go back to the father, or is this never done and there will just be new plans for the girls?http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif I know a good looking snake when I see one but getting a grip on how all this breeding and genetics stuff works is going to take some homework.

The problem with breeding a daughter back to the father is that they are snakes. Females take longer to mature sexually, and even longer to become big enough to become ideal size for gestating a litter. In the mean time, the father is getting old and larger. When breeding snakes you should choose a male that is smaller (or about same size) than the female so breeding daughter to father just isn't feasible. A male offspring will be ready to breed in about 2 years. Since you have his mother who is larger than him and a proven breeder, the choice is logical. you breed her to her young and smaller son. Trying to breed a small female that has only just matured, to a much larger male is rarely, if ever, successful.

[Dan72]

Okay, so the dads out, I understand why that won't work. What might some plans be for any females in this group of 6. If this is something newly discovered would females just be breed to a male to produce a litter of potential het positive males and then those males when old enough would be breed back to mom and hope for more??

[ConcinusMan]

What I would do is, while waiting for the females to grow up, mate their mother to a male that is not their father, (or mate their father to an unrelated female) creating (hopefully male) half-siblings that are a year younger. Those male half-siblings would be their future mates. That would ensure a good chance that the recessive gene is present in both of the half-siblings while still introducing new genes from an unrelated snake.

when outcrossing like this, i would prefer to use a WC snake so you know for sure there is no relation.

[reptileparadise]

Yup, thats a good choice...
What you (/we) can do is mate the males to their mother and (trusting they will prove themselves out) use the females to start other projects. For instance mating an albino male to one of the females, creating double hets that might one day become a beautiful new snow 'line'.

Or perhaps mate an known anery with one of these girls to create either double hets or to see wheter the lines are compatible.

So basically you can go for Concinnusmans options and focus on this particular morph, or spread out to ensure greater possibilities in the future....

------

Someone on the dutch forums made an extremely simple, yet very good observation. On basis of simple recesive inheritance, there's a good chance that F1 (communal ancestor) was het. for this trait, and by accident, both our holdbacks where also carrying these genes (basically saying all F1's young are poss. hets and these two proved out to be true hets.)....
So simple, yet I think he might be on to something. Hoping to prove this in two years time....

[ConcinusMan]

Kudos to Steve for his work on many radix projects. he's doing an excellent job, taking the time, to preserve certain morphs without getting in a hurry to produce quantities of them. Lots of outcrossed hets. This is good.

[EasternGirl]

Congrats on the unexpected addition! As far as breeding parents and offspring...I have always been aware of the fact that my female eastern, Cee Cee, who just bred with my male eastern, Seeley, is most likely Seeley's mother. Cee Cee lived under my house for a few years before I found her and had babies that inhabited my yard...to my knowledge. I believe that Seeley was one of those babies that I found in my basement a couple of years ago. :)

[reptileparadise]

Well, not having sexed any of our Thamnophis this young before, it looks like we might have 2.4..... although two females are extremely obvious, so might be 4.2 as well.....

We'll know in a month or so when we usually sex them....

Plus, we noticed one is of an entirely different color then the rest....awesome! Pics will follow, along with some cool nestmates!

[reptileparadise]

Normal, with some crazy white spots behond the head. Only a few in the litter have these and to be honest, have not seen them on a lot of our offpring the past 8 years or so.... Good thing we're holding back the entire litter then....

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/vlekkie.jpg

Good color, even before the first few true sheds... (not the baby skin sheds...)
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/parietalis-rood.jpg

A LOT of variation between the mercury ones...
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/mercury_10.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/mercury_9.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/Mercury_8.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/mercury_7.jpg

[chris-uk]

Thanks for these great pics Sjoerd. So, you're calling the new colour "mercury"?

[guidofatherof5]

Beautiful.
It will be interesting to see if the spots stay as they mature.

[katach]

So pretty! Love that blue one!

[Dan72]

Thanks for the update, very nice!! Sort of sad at the same time on a selfish level because seeing as how you are keeping the entire litter back I'll have to wait patiently until you get these snakes to the masses...... I hate waiting:rolleyes:

[chris-uk]

Thanks for the update, very nice!! Sort of sad at the same time on a selfish level because seeing as how you are keeping the entire litter back I'll have to wait patiently until you get these snakes to the masses...... I hate waiting:rolleyes:
Not to mention that several years (depending how the plans to prove and breed them go) they should spread around Europe a bit before they make it back across the Atlantic. You'll need to settle in for a long wait, there's probably time for a Lord of the Rings (extended editions) back-to-back marathon while you wait. :D

[Dan72]

Not to mention that several years (depending how the plans to prove and breed them go) they should spread around Europe a bit before they make it back across the Atlantic. You'll need to settle in for a long wait, there's probably time for a Lord of the Rings (extended editions) back-to-back marathon while you wait. :D

Well I guess I can watch those films again for the 8th or 9th time (extended editions), I only love them!! But it looks like I'll have plenty of time to not only do that several times, but read the books again as well.....:)

[InsanePirateDragon]

Such beautiful looking little guys!

[Invisible Snake]

Is there a book that discusses morphs/genetics specifically to garter snakes?

[chris-uk]

Is there a book that discusses morphs/genetics specifically to garter snakes?
Given the lack of many books written specifically about garters I feel fairly confident to say that there isn't one about Garter Snake morphs and genetics.

[kibakiba]

Garter experts, stick all your brains together and make a real garter bible. :p

[katach]

Good idea Chantel!

[reptileparadise]

Thanks guys!

We hope to have some available for world wide shipping in two years time (give or take a few months...).

As for the genetics book, it would be awesome and should not be very difficult to realise as many of the genetic info is already available for other species and usually is quite similar to for instance garters.
We'd be happy to photograph and/or contribute in any way possible :)

[chris-uk]

We should move with the times and knock out a good quality wiki rather than a book. There has to be enough knowledge on the forum to produce a great garter wiki.

[InsanePirateDragon]

Yeah there's actually a really good leopard gecko wiki with all of their morphs. No reason why we can't do the same. Between everyone we should be able to get enough photos of most everything that everyone has.

[Dan72]

Thanks guys!

We hope to have some available for world wide shipping in two years time (give or take a few months...).

As for the genetics book, it would be awesome and should not be very difficult to realise as many of the genetic info is already available for other species and usually is quite similar to for instance garters.
We'd be happy to photograph and/or contribute in any way possible :)

Two years time, give or take..... marking my calander, setting my watch. Put me down for a pair:D.

[RedSidedSPR]

I want it.

[reptileparadise]

The photo a bit bigger then usual and without frames... Hope you enjoy the shear beauty of these guys a bit better this way. The reds are also starting to get some color. Can't wait to see their reds in 3 or 4 sheds.... Only then will they start to show true colors!
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/tspgroot.jpg

[reptileparadise]

Thanks for these great pics Sjoerd. So, you're calling the new colour "mercury"?

Don't look at the file names! Thats cheating!
Will let you know in a year or two?

[chris-uk]

Don't look at the file names! Thats cheating!
Will let you know in a year or two?

I'm not that clever.... Check the description for the 3rd pic in post #38. ;)
If you let it slip, I like the name. :)

[chris-uk]

The photo a bit bigger then usual and without frames... Hope you enjoy the shear beauty of these guys a bit better this way. The reds are also starting to get some color. Can't wait to see their reds in 3 or 4 sheds.... Only then will they start to show true colors!
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/tspgroot.jpg

It's a fantastic litter. It's got to be well at the top of your all-time best litters, I can't imagine how you would top this one.

[guidofatherof5]

Wish I had me a tree like that.:D

[katach]

Wish I had me a tree like that.:D

Full of those snakes, right.:D

[ConcinusMan]

how about "quicksilver"

[reptileparadise]

We've thought about that name indeed, but it didn't quite work for us... ;)

Anyhow, noticed there's no photo of the original parents in this thread yet.
Here they where, going at it... Male in front/bottom, female in the back/top.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/parietalis-original-pair.jpg

[reptileparadise]

I'm telling you, there's more going on!
Two different animals, bad photos, but you get the idea!

Outside
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/parietalis-special-forum-formaat.jpg


Sadly, hard direct flash :(
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/parietalisspecial.jpg

[ProXimuS]

Very nice looking little ones!(and parents as well;))

[guidofatherof5]

Sweet.

[Dan72]

An amazing litter all the way around. I can't wait to see what this group produces for you on every level seeing as how you're holding back the entire clutch. Great, great snakes.

[charles parenteau]

Very cool snake you have!!

[reptileparadise]

Thanks guys!

Have posted some updated photo's of the 'normal' ones in this litter in another thread (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/breeding/10771-thamnophis-sirtalis-parietalis.html)

Currently processing some photo's of the silvery things for this thread!

[ProXimuS]

Thanks guys!

Have posted some updated photo's of the 'normal' ones in this litter in another thread (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/breeding/10771-thamnophis-sirtalis-parietalis.html)

Currently processing some photo's of the silvery things for this thread!

Can't wait! Can't wait! Can't wait!

[reptileparadise]

Okay, okay, okay.... :D

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/tspsilverything_3.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/tspsilverything_4.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/tspsilverything_1.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/tspsilverything_2.jpg

[ProXimuS]

Look at him!!:D(her?) What a cutie! It looks different now from the pictures on the first post of this thread. Or is that another one?

[reptileparadise]

Might just as well be another one :) We have six and must honestly say, I can't really tell the difference. Some have a pinkish hue, others don't... Have used at least two for todays photos....

[ProXimuS]

Either way: Beautiful kiddos!;)

[Dan72]

Awesome! Good to see pics of these, seeing as how that is the only way I'll get to enjoy them for a loooooonngggggg time:(. Okay that's it for the self pity portion of this post. Thanks for the pics! LOVE them.

[ConcinusMan]

Wow, those are so cool.

[reptileparadise]

Thanks guys!

We hope you'll all be able to enjoy these guys as soon as possible! Looking at the entire litter (currently still being held in a group of 19), the silvers are doing amazing. Growing better then most other young this year (...on the same food, honestly ;) )

[katach]

Amazingly awesome! Can't wait to see how these develope and what they end up producing as adults.

[reptileparadise]

As said before, there is more going on here....

Small update of two poss. hets (in case genetic ofcourse...) and two silvers...

Look at that pattern. Nice, normal blotched versus some kind of granite markings... Nice, but nothing special in our litters....
(btw, only two true sheds old, colours coming in nicely already!)

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/parietalis-poss-het-vergelijk.jpg

Poss. het and "golden silver" (will explain the latter below...)

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/parietalis-vergelijk-silver-en-poss-het.jpg

"Golden silver" on its own
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/TSP_zilver.jpg

Comparison between a 'normal silver' and a 'golden silver'.
These are two animals! We will upload a video soon, where the difference can clearly be seen as well!

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/silvery-and-golden-parietalis.jpg

Thanks for looking guys!

[Invisible Snake]

Great pics as always, thanks for sharing! Could you post pics of the parents?

[guidofatherof5]

Awesome as always. Looking forward to the video.

[chris-uk]

Awesome. I know that you won't be selling any of these, but any chance that you could bring one of the litter when you come to the UK? Let some of us admire these stunners in the scale. :)

[ProXimuS]

Awesome! Can't wait for the video:D

[reptileparadise]

Oops!
Forgot it could probably be inbedded here as well :) It was on ytube yesterday already.

Sorry guys, still new to this whole video thing, so expect more messing up :D Its soooooooo much easier taking photo's...

*Damn... doesn't look like the vid is appearing...*
Any help guys??

Silver, golden silver and high red possible het. Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis - YouTube (http://youtu.be/5IbywMamy7g)

[kibakiba]

You put the last number/letter combo in the youtube tags. For this video it'd be "5IbywMamy7g" in the youtube tags, without the quotes.

5IbywMamy7g

[reptileparadise]

....aaaaaaaahhhhhh... Thanks! :D

[stevenrudge]

Your not wrong BUSHSNAKE

[EasternGirl]

OMG...those babies are adorable! Gorgeous snakes! Thanks for sharing.

[reptileparadise]

Your not wrong BUSHSNAKE

Not quite with you on this mate... can you explain?

Hows your season coming along mate? Would love to see you hypo parietalis, both parents and if already born, young as well.... never seen anyone offer true hypo's before! Getting excited just thinking about the possibilities!

[ConcinusMan]

You put the last number/letter combo in the youtube tags. For this video it'd be "5IbywMamy7g" in the youtube tags, without the quotes.

5IbywMamy7g

That changed a long time ago Chantel. While it still may work, (for youtube ONLY) you don't have to do that anymore. You use the "insert video" button, and put the full URL in. That wraps the video URL in codes that say "video" /video" now, not "youtube" codes. This new way works for videos that are not on youtube, unlike the old way.

Seriously? you're still using youtube codes? Must be typing them in manually. It's sooooo much easier than that now. Ever since they updated the forum software.

[kibakiba]

I don't type them in. I just preview and click on the youtube icon. I like that method a lot more than anything else.

[ConcinusMan]

Well, you lost me. I haven't seen a youtube icon since the forum was updated. A filmstrip icon has taken its place.

[guidofatherof5]

The YouTube icon is in "Go Advanced"

[kibakiba]

Yeah, that's what I meant to say... Not preview.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Not quite with you on this mate... can you explain?

Hows your season coming along mate? Would love to see you hypo parietalis, both parents and if already born, young as well.... never seen anyone offer true hypo's before! Getting excited just thinking about the possibilities!
i only made one comment so i assume hes talking about that...anyways i agree with you on the hypo comment, have you seen Steven Bols hypo terrestris? very pretty!!

[reptileparadise]

Have not seen it, but would be very interested to see them! Ditto to the hypo parietalis. We know ours have very little black, but a hypo must be even more amazing then!

[ConcinusMan]

"hypo" for what? "Hypo" by itself is meaningless. Could be hypomelanistic, hypoerythristic, or hypoglycemic for example. Big difference in what those three things mean for the animal. I ask because only one of those "hypos" has any affect on black pigment.

[BUSHSNAKE]

thats not true dude...the hypo burmese is a good example of what a hypo is...the whole snake is pale...same with hypo balls

[Stefan-A]

the hypo burmese is a good example of what a hypo is...the whole snake is pale...same with hypo balls
Hypo-what?

[ProXimuS]

Hypo, without a root word, means: "under", or "less than," or "inadequate.";) Will need more info to know what it is "less than."

[ConcinusMan]

same with hypo balls

This isn't the place to complain about your inadequacies.:p

[Eight]

Out of interest was the two headed garter still born or alive?

[reptileparadise]

Hypo on its self means nothing indeed!
But as you guys all know, hypo in the reptile world is mostly used for hypo melanistic animals. We can all start making a big fuzz over it, or just use our common sense and realise its probably used to describe a hypo melanistic animal
(...I know, I know... don't take anything for granted, but why make a big deal out if it when its pretty/98% sure everone is talking about the same thing... Even though its not 100% correct to say it like that...)


At Eight; It was born alive, but put down by us. No need to keep that alive!

[Eight]

I can see the sense in putting it down. They've always fascinated me though. Especially when it comes to eating.

[Stefan-A]

But as you guys all know, hypo in the reptile world is mostly used for hypo melanistic animals. We can all start making a big fuzz over it, or just use our common sense and realise its probably used to describe a hypo melanistic animal
That may be, but I'm not going to play along and support the practice of using a prefix (hypo-) to describe a concept that depends entirely on what come after the prefix. It's the equivalent of referring to amelanism as "a" or to melanism as "ism". In short, it may be common practice, but the common practice is wrong.


(...I know, I know... don't take anything for granted, but why make a big deal out if it when its pretty/98% sure everone is talking about the same thing... Even though its not 100% correct to say it like that...)
Because it's not 100% correct.

[BUSHSNAKE]

duhhhhhh

[BUSHSNAKE]

many hypos dont fall under one catagory....thats when hypomelanistic etc. became just hypos. its become its own word and not just a prefix...in the reptile world i might have to add

[Stefan-A]

It is a prefix regardless of the world, and the reptile world needs to come up with a word with sufficient descriptive power.

[Steveo]

As a buyer, any time I see a "hypo" for sale, I just move on. If the seller can't accurately describe the product, I don't trust that it is what they say it is.

[EasternGirl]

Jeez...I am hypofascinated by the argument over wording right now. Lol....just giving you guys a hard time. :D

That is unfortunate about the two headed garter. I'm sorry that happened and that it had to be put down.

[ConcinusMan]

I must have missed any discussion about a two headed garter in this thread. What two headed garter? and why did it have to be put down?

This one seemed to do just fine:

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lfzt8gCTq01qzya49o1_400.jpg

[Eight]

I must admit that if I ended up with one and it wasn't in any obvious pain I would probably give it a chance to see how well it got on.

[paulh]

I must have missed any discussion about a two headed garter in this thread. What two headed garter? and why did it have to be put down?

See the first post in this thread.

I have to admit I'd probably try to raise a two-headed baby. And then sell it for all the traffic would bear. :)

I love the looks of all the babies, both silvers and normals.

[ProXimuS]

:eek:Richard, is/was that one of yours?!:eek:

[BUSHSNAKE]

It is a prefix regardless of the world, and the reptile world needs to come up with a word with sufficient descriptive power.
they have...hypomelanistic, hypoerythristic and hypoaxanthic....a hypo burm is hypomelanistic and hypoaxanthic, they just dont call it that...most people understand that without having to say it.

[ProXimuS]

I think most everyone had a pretty good idea on what was meant. But you are kind of proving the point of the "argument"... There are many different "hypos" and without the root word it's unclear on what is meant.


And you know what they say happens when you assume....:p

[Stefan-A]

they have...hypomelanistic, hypoerythristic and hypoaxanthic....a hypo burm is hypomelanistic and hypoaxanthic, they just dont call it that...most people understand that without having to say it.
Then they should use them.

[Steveo]

they have...hypomelanistic, hypoerythristic and hypoaxanthic....a hypo burm is hypomelanistic and hypoaxanthic, they just dont call it that...most people understand that without having to say it.

Since I'm not into burms, I had no idea that's what was meant.

Kinda reminds me of "bro speak" at the gym... don't talk in code, just say what you mean.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Then they should use them.
i use to think that too

[Stefan-A]

i use to think that too
What convinced you?

[ConcinusMan]

:eek:Richard, is/was that one of yours?!:eek:

No. I can't remember his name but there's some rich dude that buys up oddities like this. He paid a ridiculously large amount of money for it. As soon as this thing was revealed to the world, (it was kept a secret well into adulthood) the lies/false "facts" started immediately, starting with "There are eight known two-headed snakes in the world, but this is the only snake which is both two headed and albino." Which is completely false. There are way more than 8 "two-headed" snakes in captivity in the world, and several of those are also albino.

It is however, probably the only "two-headed" garter snake alive today, and actually, I don't even know if this thing is still alive but it seems reasonably likely that it is.

Anyway, instead of staying off topic you can read more about it here:

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/8112-two-headed-albino-checkered.html

[Dan72]

Just wanted to bump this and see if there was any updates with the group, or pics:)

[reptileparadise]

Hoping to update in a week or two...

We're currently extremely busy with a major show coming up and we're finding it really hard to find time for photo's... Sorry guys!

What I can update so far is that they are doing great! Great shedding, growing, feeding :)
Colors are pretty much unchanged..... :D

[reptileparadise]

Teeeeeeny tiny update...

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/silver_ipad_4.jpg

They will make their public debute this sunday, but shhhh... we're not telling the dutch folk just yet

[chris-uk]

Still stunningly attractive.

Just an aside Sjoerd - what surface do you photograph on? I like the faint reflection, I'm guessing something glossy and white like a white tile?

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

Teeeeeeny tiny update...

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/silver_ipad_4.jpg

They will make their public debute this sunday, but shhhh... we're not telling the dutch folk just yet

Don't tell the British invastion Sunday either !!! :-p

[reptileparadise]

Don't worry about that John... We'll keep you busy with some chocolates :D

@ Fons /Thamnophis... you haven't seen anything... haha :)

@ Chris, photo made on a piece of plexiglass... shiny frosted look :)

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Very pretty snake,Sjoerd:) It'll be interesting to see what they look like as adults.

[ConcinusMan]

Those are awesome

[RedSidedSPR]

What he said^^^

Looks sweet

[guidofatherof5]

Awesome update. Beautiful scrub.

[reptileparadise]

Thanks guys! They are doing great luckily! Holding their colours beter then we could have hoped!

Here's a poss. het...7026

[RedSidedSPR]

I've said this before but man I love your photography. Lol

[Greg'sGarters]

That is beautiful!!! Try to produce more of those!!!

[reptileparadise]

We will, don't worry!

We hope to be moving in Dec/jan '13, so just in time for the new season to start and even though it will be VERY cr**py due to the move, we have some extremely cool parietalis pairings lined up for you guys, producing some killer offspring!

[reptileparadise]

Tiny update straight from our FB page...

http://sphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/561534_433527566707751_1854194089_n.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Tiny or not, awesome.

[reptileparadise]

Ok guys, here goes nothing...

This year might not prove anything out after all... The female that gave birth to these young is suffering from a R.I.
She was given Marbocyl a couple of times now and we can now only hope/wait she'll pull through. IF she makes it, it'll be next year that we get to prove things out and she will then be bred to a son (if there are any... Still haven't looked under any skirts!)

Out of 6 silvers, two have died sadly! Three are doing amazing and one is doing so-so...
Poss. hets. all doing great! I'm suspecting more to be going on still, mostly in the form of a 'granite pattern'. Will be cool to find out some time... (NOT in photo)
Third photo is a terribly light high red... In person, simply wow...

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/silvie.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/nothappy.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/ghost.jpg

[chris-uk]

Thanks for the update. Shame that the mother is suffering from an RI, I didn't realise which snake you said you were injecting earlier on fb. Everyone will just have to sit tight and wait to see how these guys prove out.

[guidofatherof5]

Hope the RI clears up soon. Sorry to hear you lost some scrubs.

Marbofloxacin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marbofloxacin)

[Dan72]

Good to have an update, thanks. Best thoughts your way hoping mom comes around.

[reptileparadise]

A 2013 update!

Mum is doing better indeed and even though I didn't quite plan or expect anything.... She gave birth today to a small litter.

As for the dark form, which could very well be normal normals... Please take note these animals come from two of my very best High Red animals!!!!!!

Please take note that all names in photo's are my personal working names and NOT morph names!
Nothing will be named or claimed untill genetically proven!

21% light form silver, 6% dark form silver, 21% 'Hypo', 6% dark form hypo, 46% dark form

...AWESOME odds!


http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/dark.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/threesome.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/light-silver.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"

[reptileparadise]

Cheers Steve! I hate doing these kind of disclaimer things, but we all know what happens if you don't...... :) ... What shall we call roses now...? :D Tullips? :D

[guidofatherof5]

In my opinion the "Light form silver" is the most beautiful. Reminds me of my B/W radixes.

[Lowfur]

I'm fond of the light form silvers too! But I like seeing the b/w radixes too Steve

[chris-uk]

How do the proportion of each form compare to last year's litter?
The fact that you've produced the silvers twice with the same pairing is a promising sign for future generations. It's just a case of working out exactly what is going on.

[reptileparadise]

Thanks guys!
I'm pretty sure now that this is a new simple recessive morph, but it will need some more proving out. Again, I'm very confident in the outcome!

Chris, silvers same as last year, roughly 25% (which totally is in sync with the theoretical 25% you would get from het X hhet breeding)
Only had one hypo-ish last year, and 25% this year...
Dark form... none last year! Considering these are from the brightest highest reddest snakes I have... Neat stuff!
Normal, ca. 60-70% last year and only ca. 5% this year! ...Unless you count the darkies as normals...

[chris-uk]

With silver around 25% in each litter it does sound like a single recessive gene mutation. I'd wager that the dark form is genetically normal, but it's odd that you had none last year and a lot this year. It's the hypo-ish ones that are curious.
I wonder if there's possibly an environmental factor that influences the colouring of the "normals"?

[reptileparadise]

Probably normals indeed!

there could be external factors, such as darker snakes in colder climates, but this year has been warmer then last year. Plus, don't think evolution happens in one generation :D

i hear you though and lets just see how this pans out! Its the hypo and silver thing i will be focussing on. The darks are only staying because they are poss. Hets to be honest.....

[BUSHSNAKE]

I see a true "snow" red sided garter in your future:)

[reptileparadise]

Cheers Joe... I've also stated this on facebook, but yeah, spot on...

no secrets projects really, its all a matter of common sense on the steps that I'll follow from here. Proving out, combining.... It will take a lot of time, but even a chimp should be able to figure it our :)

Just need to get more of those damn albino's! Hopefully the het anery het albino will 'do it' with the anery het. Albino...! Would be a major step in the right direction!
(snow x silver, triple hets... Etc)

[BUSHSNAKE]

snow x silver...now your talking, that would be cool

[reptileparadise]

Well... Yeah... Gotta see what silver does to the known 'anery'... Double homozygous silver anery could be cool... Or could be nothing. Dunno!

Why not take it into albino as well?

all I need now is the second albino strain as well.... Did think of scotts blue red sided, but I simply dont see it work. Don't think the result would be worth the 3 year project!

[reptileparadise]

...One of last years batch... in deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep shed!

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/silver-in-shed-2012.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Beautiful.

[ConcinusMan]

Wow :D

[reptileparadise]

Well, I have finally decided to take a look at whats under their skirts... 4 silvers remain from last years litter and looks like we've got 2.2!

One of the boys is just about breeding size (the one on the previous photo) and has shed... I did a shoot of the entire litter and will upload other cool stuff later this week probably!

In the meantime, I held the silver next to a know line anery parietalis (100% het. albino)
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/Silver-anery-VS.jpg

Also, two possible hets from this litter compared to each other. And no... the front one is NOT about to shed... :)
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/vergelijk-poss-hets-2012.jpg

[chris-uk]

Nice update.

The silver is so much prettier than an the anerythristic. The het unfortunately looks washed out, but given the silvers are such a stunning morph (still an assumption as the genetics aren't proven yet) having washed out hets is a small price to pay. I don't imagine you're going to have problems finding homes for this line once you stop holding them back (I'd break my "no morphs policy" for these, the only other morph I'd do that for are Steve's B&W radix... Hmm, don't they look similar?).

How about you bring one to Donny this year as a not for sale tease?

[reptileparadise]

Right... One of this years silvers is being a bit.... Weird! All of last years are still nice and silvery, this one is a bit... well... pink?????????????

[guidofatherof5]

Good looking little scrub.

[chris-uk]

Right... One of this years silvers is being a bit.... Weird! All of last years are still nice and silvery, this one is a bit... well... pink?????????????

Are you sure you haven't dropped it in the wash with one of your high reds?

[Mommy2many]

Very beautiful snakes!

[Dan72]

All caught up again. One of my favorite threads, love the pics and the updates.

[reptileparadise]

Cheers! I've got a few more photo's, but so little time lately! Haven't even been able to update my website since babyseason started!!! :(

Hope to do a decent photo thread again soon :)

[reptileparadise]

I've just found a photo of the original animals, female gravid back in 2005.... They gave birth to F1, which is the father of the pair that made the silvers! (Anyone confused???????????)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/vuurbuikpad/b3be1b8d.jpg

[jwolfe152]

wow they are beautiful snakes

[chris-uk]

wow they are beautiful snakes

But of course. They are garters.

[Dan72]

So giving this a bump. From following Sjoerd on Facebook it is going to be (fingers crossed) a big year for this litter and I can't wait! Sjoerd I know you are a busy man but if you get a chance to update on the status of this group I'm sure the forum would be excited to hear your plans for the upcoming season. Best of luck!

[reptileparadise]

Thanks for the bump Dan. First time back here since December 2014. Sadly, still seeing a lot of things I can't agree with, so I will limit my activities to this thread. Doctors advice & blood pressure and stuff :p

No, seriously, I'm not here to engage in discussions whatsoever.

So, the silvers. In the meanwhile, our groups have matured, I managed to buy back as poss het female and we have some other morphs lying around for combinations. We've been lucky enough to be male heavy in the silvers and female heavy in the poss hets. Some paired up already and hopefully many more matings to follow. Our (only) silver female in deep first shed. I hope she will shed soon so that we can set some males on her. All looking quite hopefull. Any result would be good....although I really, reeally hope some poss het females will prove out!

Progress is best followed on our facebook page

[guidofatherof5]

Good to see you on.

[Eddie]

Good luck with your pairings. I hope your females turn out to be hets!!

[reptileparadise]

Cheers guys, we certainly do hope the same!

Sadly, our Anery (A) / Melanistic / known anery line parietalis male did not make it through hibernation, leaving his Anery female behind. She is in deep shed and should soon have her first of the season. Without the anery male to court her, she will be introduced to a silver male.

Hoping non compatible to produce double hets (providing silver / anery B ) is proving out simple recessive.

Will keep you all posted as usual.

Sjoerd

[Albert Clark]

Cheers guys, we certainly do hope the same!

Sadly, our Anery (A) / Melanistic / known anery line parietalis male did not make it through hibernation, leaving his Anery female behind. She is in deep shed and should soon have her first of the season. Without the anery male to court her, she will be introduced to a silver male.

Hoping non compatible to produce double hets (providing silver / anery B ) is proving out simple recessive.

Will keep you all posted as usual.

Sjoerd
Wow! Sorry about the loss of the anery line parietalis male. Hoping to see you bounce back with your plan as a backup.

[reptileparadise]

Yes! Plan B seems to work! Just witnessed a lock between an Anery (A/melanistic) Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis X Silver (Anery B?) Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis......

These could be the most exciting normals of the year! If things work...

We also have a short video of this pairing and had the GoPro set up. Hope we got cool footage!

[Eddie]

Best of luck!!

[reptileparadise]

After four TOO long years... Finally!

From silver x silver pairing...http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13288&stc=1

[Tommytradix]

Yess!! Congrats!!

[Tommytradix]

how many did she have?

[Dan72]

Congrats! Love these guys.

[guidofatherof5]

Awesome

[reptileparadise]

Cheers all... Some are feeding already today, so far, so good!

[Tommytradix]

Cheers all... Some are feeding already today, so far, so good!
good to hear! kepp up the good work!

[Zdravko092368]

Congrats. Must feel great.