Gail's garter - the snake kind silly.

[kueluck]

This is my first garter, one rescued Eastern. No idea of age, she is a wild caught that had the end of her tail taken off and was in a reptile rescue until healed. The guy was going to release her back into the wild but knew I was looking for a Eastern, so taaa daaaah meet Zena.

Her body is far from perfect, she has lots of scares and like I said the end of her tail is gone but she is so sweet. She has not tried to bit or even attempted to strike at me. She has not musked or eliminated on me. She ate a worm right from my fingers, 2 actually. She paces back and forth and wants out, but my hope is this will stop once she realizes that she is in a safe place with endless food, fresh water & lots of love. She is my Zena.
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[guidofatherof5]

Zena is a good looking snake. I'm glad she's is in a safe environment and being taken care of.
Any chance we can get a look at this injured tail area and maybe an underside look at the tail?
It is encouraging that she's eating right from your hand.
Give her sometime to settle in and get comfortable. She's had a rough time of it as of lately.
Looking forward to hearing about Zena's future.

[EasternGirl]

What a big, beautiful girl you have there! So glad she found a good home. She is a very lovely eastern. That is wonderful that she is eating out of your hand...my w/c easterns are very skiddish. I like the name too. Looking forward to hearing all about your adventures with Zena in the future. :)

[angrygamer]

Very nice snake you have there!

Can you give us the length/weight?

[Natrix]

Lovely girl! ;)

[mikem]

She is a beauty! Great looking garter! I'm with Steve, I'd like to see her old scars and tail injury. Those scars just means she's had a rough life up until now. She's very lucky to have a loving home and someone to care for her! You don't have to be perfect to be beautiful :)

[kueluck]

49024903
Length 18 to 19 inch
Weight 62 grams
Ok, this is about as good as it get for pics. She's no diva and not thrilled about a photo shoot.

[guidofatherof5]

That stubby tail is looking good and she should do well with it.
Just make sure she sheds completely.

[kueluck]

Trust me, I'll almost be counting the scales on the shed.

[katach]

Very pretty girl, congrats!

[mikem]

Thanks for the tail pics. Looks good. :cool:

[Mommy2many]

Very pretty girl!

[Selkielass]

Lovely gal!
I kind of like the scars on my w.c. Bikers. They are proof that these snakes have their own history, and make identification. Easier as their subtly different colors change with shed phase.

[chris-uk]

Nice girl. And the tail doesn't look like it will be a problem.

[kueluck]

Feeding - I've found some sites that say feed every 2 or 3 days, haven't found a thread here for how often to feed, just what I should and should not feed. 3 days ago the rescue place said she ate a fuzzy, yesterday she ate 2 big earthworms and this morning she had a couple pieces of tilapia pieces, after I rubbed some worm slim on it. Can I over feed her? It's so much fun watching her eat! I still haven't seen her in the water, should I be worried about this? So far all seems good, and she is very curious about the three cats that watch her. Oh and she did poop last night, just in case any one wanted to know.

[guidofatherof5]

Yes, garters can be over fed.
I feed my adults twice a week with a treat(small meal) in there also.

[EasternGirl]

Her tail looks fine...Seeley, my male eastern, has a stub tail exactly like that...just something that must have happened to him in the wild before I found him. He has never had a problem shed in the year and a half that I have had him now...he always has perfect sheds. Yes, you can overfeed...it can cause the snake to regurgitate or become obese...so the best thing to do is go by the rule of thumb that as soon as you see a nice bulge in her tummy...stop feeding. My Cee Cee will eat until she explodes if I don't stop her...so I just watch until her tummy has a nice little round bulge and then I stop. Zena looks like a pretty decent sized female...and eastern females can get quite large...Cee Cee is three feet. You can feed smaller feedings more often or bigger meals less often...smaller meals more often is better for digestion. I feed Cee Cee about 2-3 pinkies worth of food per week. So...either I would feed her one...one and a half pinkies every 3 or 4 days...or 2 or 3 pinkies every 5-6 days. If I feed fish or earthworms, I just try to make it equal to two-three pinkies worth of food. I would try to get her on a schedule at this point. If you haven't seen her in the water...she may be going to it when you aren't looking...but try putting her up to the water and see if she drinks. What kind of water dish do you have for her? It's good that she is pooping!

[mikem]

Don't worry about the water. She knows it's there and will drink/soak whenever she wants. Pooping updates are always welcome! :D

[kueluck]

I would like to feed her Mon pinkie, Wed worms, Fri fish. I figure this way it's balanced and with feeding her pinkies should I still use calcium? Are the bones in the mice enough? I also plan on using a multi-vitamin on the 1st and 15th of each month. Here's a photo of the water dish.
4927


And this is what I found on craigslist yesterday for $25 (29 long critter keeper) and spent today cleaning all the items. The only thing I added was the aspen and the small hide on the left. And hope to add more snakes after this coming weekend. Also got a fogger which my frogs will enjoy.
4928

[guidofatherof5]

Variety is good but I'm not sure switching the foods around like that is what you should do.
I feed one food source for awhile then switch. I also think Mon, Wed, and Fri. is too often.
Just my opinion.

[kueluck]

Thanks Steve, I need input on this. The care sheets give you basic info and since most of you guys have been doing this for quite awhile I need your input on this so I can keep her healthy and happy. I'm use to feeding my frogs,toads,cats and husband every day so it's kinda hard for me NOT to feed her.

[kueluck]

*sigh* All I find is conflicting info about feeding. Some say feed one huge meal once a week, others say feed 2 to 3 small meals once a week. Ok, what's a small meal then? One pinkie, one worm, one piece of fish filet? What would she do if she was in the wild? Is there a science to this or is it hit and miss with each individual snake? I gave her a pinkie tonight and she took it will no problem. I just put her on the kitchen counter on a napkin and pinkie taken. Worse case scenario?

494649474948

[guidofatherof5]

I think for many garter snakes it feast or famine. During good times they probably fill up and during the lean times they starve.
The conflicting info. is due to the fact most keepers adjust feeding amounts to each snake. I would think your snake could eat 5 of those pinkies without any problem.
Most garters don't even look like they've eaten 24 hours afterwards. Your will need to try some different eating schedules and see what works for her. If they get a nice bulge at eating time they should be fine.

[kueluck]

So there really isn't any set rule for feeding then, as long as I feed garter approved items, i.e. pinkies, earthworms, tilapia. And as long as what goes in comes out I'm good to go......sorta speaking. And should I still use calcium supplements even though the pinkies have bones in them which would supply calcium to her in a natural way. Multi vitamins twice a month? I'm just trying to write out a schedule for her as I have done with my amphibians. This way I don't have to second guess my self. Oh and by the way, she is a BLAST to hang out with. I love watching her watch my cats, and she is NOT afraid of them at all!

[kueluck]

This is becoming the evening routine. After dinner watch a little TV while handling Zena and letting her run between my fingers until she is finished with her exercises and decides to settle down in my lap. I can not believe she is so sweet for a wild caught snake. I'm so glad I took her in. The end of her tail seems to still be very sensitive.496949704971

[guidofatherof5]

From what I could see.
Supralabials 7
Lateral rows 2 and 3
This is consistent with T.sirtalis.

[d_virginiana]

Lovely snake :)
Garters are probably the friendliest of all the wild snakes I've ever handled.

On a random side note, are you from the NC Winston Salem? I live in central NC as well. I've never seen a reptile rescue anywhere though, it's cool that you have one near you.

[kueluck]

Not sure what language you are speaking, but ok?:o
From what I could see.
Supralabials 7
Lateral rows 2 and 3
This is consistent with T.sirtalis.

[kueluck]

Yup, in W-S. Here's the rescue link. about us - Turtle,snake,and lizard Reptile Rescue Center (http://ccsbreptilerescue.webs.com/aboutus.htm)
Lovely snake :)
Garters are probably the friendliest of all the wild snakes I've ever handled.

On a random side note, are you from the NC Winston Salem? I live in central NC as well. I've never seen a reptile rescue anywhere though, it's cool that you have one near you.

[EasternGirl]

Gail, the tank you have is the one that I have...I love them...I actually have two of them and plan to get more. I love the slide lock lids because they are so escape proof. The language that Steve is speaking is the language of snake identification. He is talking about the different kind of scales on the snake...mainly the scales on upper lip of the snakes mouth and the scales located under the stripe going down the middle of the snake's back...we count those scales to identify species and subspecies in garters. There is a book, The Garter Snakes: Evolution and Ecology, by Rossman, Ford, and Seigel, that is available on Amazon that we use as sort of our bible for garters. It's really the best book around for garter info. It explains all of the identification stuff. As far as feeding goes, you will get the hang of it. It is one of those things that you have to kind of feel out with experience...for now, I would say why don't you try feeding her every 5 days. Alternate between fish and worms and pinkies each feeding...that's what I do. Give her enough food until you see a nice bulge in her tummy. Like I said, I feed Cee Cee about two pinkies worth of food every 5 days. Zena looks to be about Cee Cee's size. If you feed her fish, just try to size it out to be about the same amount as two pinkies worth. If you give her worms...I would say that probably 3-4 nice size worms would be good....but just watch that tummy bulge, if she looks nice and full after 3 worms, you can stop feeding her. You will get the hang of it, I promise. I know it's tough at first...I was confused too. :)

As far as supplements go...some people use them and some people don't...it's a judgement call. Some people think the food provides enough nutrients, some don't. I dust the food with a little calcium and D3 powder every fourth feeding with my snakes. If you want the name of the supplement or more specific instructions on how to use it...just ask.

[kueluck]

Thanks…I’m gonna look for the book this weekend at the reptile show in Raleigh. I just hope they don't push the evolution part, which I personally think is a load of crap, but then that's a whole other forum.

As for feeding, what is the reason for feeding a lot at one time instead of giving smaller portions more often?

[EasternGirl]

They probably won't have the book there. Go on Amazon.com. It's not that easy to find from what I have heard. It is also pricey...look for a used copy on Amazon. I got a nice used copy...it was still $60. But it is worth every penny. Feeding smaller portions more often is better for digestion. Feeding less often is just easier for some people with busy schedules and many snakes to manage. And some people just choose to feed less often. I have a few snakes now so I find it's easier for me to try to get them on a similar schedule and feed them less often...rather than trying to feed several snakes several times a week. I like to try to feed all of them on the same day...every 5 or 6 days. Except for my babies of course, who need to be fed every day.

[kueluck]

I kinda thougth it would be easier on the system to feed smaller portions more often. This is why I thought Mon Mice (pinkies) Wed worms, Fri fish. I wish my frogs and toads had that much variety. I don't have kids and spend several hours per day just tending to my critters. I don't consider it a chore or work, for me this is fun, kinda like weeding the yard, I enjoy doing this.

[EasternGirl]

I totally understand...it's nice to spend time with our animals. Still, maybe every day might be too much. Why don't you try then...feeding her two pinkies worth of food per week and splitting it into two feedings. Feed her every 3 days...one pinkies worth of food. She may not even want to eat every day. Try that and see how that works for her. And don't get me wrong...I love taking care of all of my animals! It's just that I have quite a few in addition to my snakes, plus my son and all of his activities...and then school and my house, etc., etc. It can get to be a lot to do at times! :)

[kueluck]

I don't plan to feed every day, just Mon, Wed, and Fri.

[kueluck]

Had to take one of my toads to the vet today, small soft cyst on throat (Rosie will be ok) and Zena gave me a fecal sample to take with me. Not surprised, she has worms so now it's Panacur time. I wasn't even going to try the pry the mouth open thing, so I took a tiny piece of tilapia and made a panacur sandwich, ran it over an earthworm for scent and she took it with no problem. I just hope I get away with this for the next 12 doses that are spread over the next month and a half.

[Invisible Snake]

Had to take one of my toads to the vet today, small soft cyst on throat (Rosie will be ok) and Zena gave me a fecal sample to take with me. Not surprised, she has worms so now it's Panacur time. I wasn't even going to try the pry the mouth open thing, so I took a tiny piece of tilapia and made a panacur sandwich, ran it over an earthworm for scent and she took it with no problem. I just hope I get away with this for the next 12 doses that are spread over the next month and a half.

Sorry to hear she has worms, do you know how she got them?

[kueluck]

No, she was a wild snake that had the end of her tail cut off and was at the local reptile rescue. Once she healed they let me have her. I'm just glad I was able to catch it now before it had gotten worse.

[guidofatherof5]

Had to take one of my toads to the vet today, small soft cyst on throat (Rosie will be ok) and Zena gave me a fecal sample to take with me. Not surprised, she has worms so now it's Panacur time. I wasn't even going to try the pry the mouth open thing, so I took a tiny piece of tilapia and made a panacur sandwich, ran it over an earthworm for scent and she took it with no problem. I just hope I get away with this for the next 12 doses that are spread over the next month and a half.

12 doses. Never heard of that schedule.:confused:

[kueluck]

:poops........I give her 1 drop a day for 3 days, repeat in 2 weeks, then repeat in 4 weeks, then do another fecal test. I have a post-it on her cage so I won't mess this up. Zena is trying to figure out what the heck this yellow thing is......she is such a hoot!

[EasternGirl]

Well...like you said, no surprise that she had worms...very common with wild snakes. Good that you got that fecal sample and caught them and are treating them. Sounds like she is in great hands!

[kueluck]

I'm trying my best.:D

[guidofatherof5]

Not sure what language you are speaking, but ok?:o

Sorry about that. Hope this helps.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//769/medium/ribbon_scale_count.jpg
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//756/12342.gif

The lateral stripe runs the length of the snake and is located in a particular row of scales.
In the case of this snake it would be said the lateral is contained in row 3 and 4 and has a dorsal scale count of 22, 11 on each side of the snake.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/lateral_scale_count.jpg

[Invisible Snake]

Sorry about that. Hope this helps.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//769/medium/ribbon_scale_count.jpg
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//756/12342.gif

The lateral stripe runs the length of the snake and is located in a particular row of scales.
In the case of this snake it would be said the lateral is contained in row 3 and 4 and has a dorsal scale count of 22, 11 on each side of the snake.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/lateral_scale_count.jpg

Nerd alert! lol jk, thanks for posting that Steve :)

[kueluck]

Nerd or not, I appreciate all and any input that can help me with my Zena.

[guidofatherof5]

Nerd alert! lol jk, thanks for posting that Steve :)

Thanks. ;):D

[kueluck]

5012How can you tell if a garter is over weight? Her head looks so small compared to her body.

[guidofatherof5]

First, that snake looks to be in very good shape. Not under weight or over weight.

Over weight garters sometimes get a double chin. They can also get scale spread which makes them look gravid when they are not.

[kueluck]

Thanks Steve, only when she breathes really hard do her scales spread. Like after several mins running through my fingers.

[kueluck]

On Saturday I saw Zena up under the 25watt red bulb. Did she just fine it or does the Panacur make her feel icky and the heat makes her feel better. Just curious.
5025

[guidofatherof5]

Very hard to say.

[EasternGirl]

Many garters just like to climb up into trees and bask under the light...mine love to do that. Speaking of the overweight/gravid thing. Do you know how long the rescue had Zena? Is there any chance that she could be gravid? If she was outside in the wild recently, it has been mating season.

[kueluck]

That's not funny :confused:

[kueluck]

Zena was turned over to the rescue around 4-15, she came from southern VA. They had her 2 weeks then I got her. But if she is gravid, besides growing in girth are there any other signs?

[EasternGirl]

Well, Gail...it wasn't meant to be funny...sorry! It is a question that I'm actually surprised we didn't think of before. You wanted easterns! You may have gotten your wish. Well...she looks kind of gravid to me...and she has been eating a lot. Those are signs. You could get a digital postal scale and start weighing her weekly to see if she is gaining significant weight. We could tell you how to do that. I would say if she was outside in mating season and she is female...there is a good chance she could be. I would start a thread about this and ask other what they think. Feel free to say that I brought it up...that I said that I think she looks gravid and since she was found outside in mating season, I think it is worth considering. If she does have babies, garters are self-sufficient from birth...you could get the babies through the first couple of feeds and shed and release them into a safe place into the wild if you cannot care for them yourself. Easterns can have big litters.

You'll have to post more pics...I'm going back over your pics of her and in some pics I think she looks possibly gravid and in other pics...I'm not sure. If you could get a length measurement and a weight on her, that would help me too.

[kueluck]

She’s 5 grams more today than she was on 4-28, but I hope it’s the 2 pinkies she ate last night. She acts like she wants to eat all the time, when she sees the tongs come out she’s right there. I’m going to weigh her once she poops. As for length she’s about 18-19 inches. I’ll try to run a string down her body tonite to see if the 18-19 is accurate. I’ll try to start a new thread on this tonite after dinner, voting & the book store, with new pics.

Let the babies go she said…………….crazy Marnie.

[EasternGirl]

Well I agree...I couldn't do it either. But some people do not want to take care of a bunch of babies, or simply cannot afford to...or don't have the space or time. Just letting you know that the babies can take care of themselves if released into the wild. The mother leaves them right away anyway. But I hear you...if all 35 of Cee Cee's babies had lived...I would be feeding and caring for 35 little ones right now and hoping to find homes for all of them!

[kueluck]

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/10445-gravid.html Ok, I started a new thread for help on the topic if Zena may be gravid.

[kueluck]

They say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Well I be holdin' her a lot & she seems to like it.

5073

[guidofatherof5]

Very nice.

[kibakiba]

Pretty :)

[mikem]

Great pic of Zena :cool:

[kueluck]

Thanks guys, she makes it very easy.

[i_heart_sneakie_snakes]

Zena is totally adorable <3

[kueluck]

Today while taking the laundry down I had Zena in the butterfly castle (used to hatch out cocoons) for some fresh air and sunshine.
5108

Then I changed her tank using reptile carpet and carefresh inside her hide for next week. We're headed to TX for a wedding and my neighbor will be taking care of the our critters and she is not comfortable taking Zena out to feed her. So this way she can feed her in the tank and I don't have to worry about her consuming substrate. I don't think she likes the carpet though. She's been hanging in the plants and on the grape vine.

5109

[Invisible Snake]

Nice set-up!

[chris-uk]

I like the look of grapevine in a viv. Something else I need to look for.

[kueluck]

Zena was real witchy yesterday after I did her tank. The little stinker took a strike at me for the first time. She didn’t open her mouth so I guess it was just a warning shot. I took the hint. I really think it’s the carpet, or the fact that I moved her hide since she had not gone back into it. This morning she was lying on top of the plant instead of her hide. Changed it back to the original floor plan and put the carpet in just half of the tank. I hope this agrees with the queen.
5116

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds like you know you place.;):D

[kueluck]

Pretty much :p, but it's okay, she is worth it. And this morning she was back in her hide :D.

[EasternGirl]

What she did is called a "false strike"...garters do it all the time...it is a defense mechanism of theirs. Most of the time, garters do not actually want to bite, as they are not normally aggressive by nature...so when they are frightened or upset...they do the false strike. Cee Cee does it all the time. I have a grape vine in Cee Cee's enclosure too and she loves it....she lies in it all the time. Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder...but anyone who doesn't see how lovely Zena is must be blind! :)

[kueluck]

Whoot whoot :D - getting a 40-gallon tank for Zena and her new tank mate that I have no idea where she will come from. Since I can't put a baby in with her I'm looking for a female about her size (19inch). I'm not looking for fancy and definitely not for breeding. Albinos creep me out with their pink eyes. I know I said I didn'twant to ship but unless I wild catch one I have no other options. So ifanyone is willing to sell me one of their females, let me know. Iunderstand if you are hesitant on this since I'm pretty new at being keeper ofgarters, but I've done a ton of research and Zena is doing pretty good. I've also raised tree frogs & toads from tads with great success,which my home is starting to look like the ark! So if willing, I'm able.

[kueluck]

This is the first time I'm going thru this, so how long does it take once the eyes are really cloudy?
5280

[guidofatherof5]

The eyes will go clear again, the shed could occur anytime within the next week after that.
At least that has been my experience.

[kueluck]

Thanks Steve. There really isn't any detailed info on time span on the web.

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks Steve. There really isn't any detailed info on time span on the web.

It's a very fluid process. Each snake is different.

[katach]

With our snakes it usually takes 2-4 days after they clear for the shed. Be sure they have the proper humidity for a good clean shed.

[Dan72]

Whoot whoot :D - getting a 40-gallon tank for Zena and her new tank mate that I have no idea where she will come from. Since I can't put a baby in with her I'm looking for a female about her size (19inch). I'm not looking for fancy and definitely not for breeding. Albinos creep me out with their pink eyes. I know I said I didn'twant to ship but unless I wild catch one I have no other options. So ifanyone is willing to sell me one of their females, let me know. Iunderstand if you are hesitant on this since I'm pretty new at being keeper ofgarters, but I've done a ton of research and Zena is doing pretty good. I've also raised tree frogs & toads from tads with great success,which my home is starting to look like the ark! So if willing, I'm able.
Just read this thread, great snake, glad you took her in. If you get another are you going to use Zena's old digs for a quarantine tank until you put them together? And I haven't checked your other thread but what was the outcome on gravid or not?

[kueluck]

Dan, as for her being gravid I don't know and hope not. She has put on another 3 grams since 5-8 but I'm hoping that's just normal growth. It puts her at 70 grams total weight. Yes I'll keep her existing tank for a CCC (critter care center). I also have 2 – 10 gal and 1 - 2.5 gal for quarantine. One can never have to many tanks!! I also am a keeper of 3 Cope's Grey Tree Frogs and 3 Fowler's Toads, all raised from tads. Plus if I need more tanks my neighbor has plenty. She is also keeper of the Grey's but has fallen in love with Zena.

[kueluck]

53225323
Ok, I came home and stopped by her tank to say "hey", headed into the kitchen and got her Friday fish ready, came back and found this in the tank. I've been watching her in hopes to get video of this but, oh well, maybe next time. Complete with eye caps and tail. So how often does this happen? Oh, and the shed measured 23.5 inch.

[guidofatherof5]

Sheds aren't reliable for length. Usually they are longer then the actual snake. Sometimes shorter.

How often they shed depends on the many factors like metabolism, amount of food, frequency of food and what food.
Better to sit back and enjoy the ride.
Let the snake drive.:D

[kueluck]

Sold one of the smaller tanks & moved Zena into her larger abode. Maybe now I'll look for a female roomie for her. My only worry is what if she does not like her new companion? :confused:
5387

[katach]

Do you have a quarantine tank? When getting a new snake it is always a good practice to quarantine. That way you can monitor for illness, mites, parasites, and temperament. If the two don't get on together after that period of time, you have the quarantine tank to separate them.

[kueluck]

I have extra tanks out the wahzoo. 20 long, 2 tens, even a 2.5. Plus my neighbor has a ton of xtras also. I just can't resist a good deal on craigslist.

[kueluck]

Reptile hammocks, not just for lizardsanymore. Zena enjoys warming under thered lamp so I decided to try a reptile hammock and she enjoys curling up on itand stretching out also. Since Istarted using the reptile carpet on one side I’ve noticed that she does herpooping on that side only. Makes it alot easier to clean the cage since all I have to do is pull that one out, wipedown the glass and replace with a clean one. Compared to my frogs and toads she is so much easier to take care of.

5439

[katach]

That's very cool!

[ProXimuS]

Thats so cute! I'd like to try one of those for mine. I've seen them for ferrets and things like that, but not for reptiles. Adorable:)

[kueluck]

You wouldn't want the one for ferrets or sugar gliders, they are made of solid materials. The ones for reptiles are made from non-absorbent, vented fabric and easy to clean if they mess on it. Zena loves it and hangs out daily on this.

Thats so cute! I'd like to try one of those for mine. I've seen them for ferrets and things like that, but not for reptiles. Adorable:)

[kueluck]

Now I get it! My little tiny red sided arrived today and OH MY GOSH!!!! I’ve seen a lot of your photos on this site but they do NO justice to the awesome cuteness of the babies. It’s like a piece of cooked spaghetti with a tiny peanut head!!! As soon as she came in I took her home and got her settled into her new abode, now it’s gonna be a long day at work until I can see her again. I’ll get pics up soon. Thanks Jason.

[kueluck]

Chopping up a pinky and a worm was not something I looked forward to doing. But it was rewarding when the new baby (still haven’t picked a name yet) ate from the tweezers. Plus Zena then ate the leftovers. All is good on the snake side of the house.

[guidofatherof5]

Good news to hear. Happy snakes are a very good thing.

[Invisible Snake]

Glad all is well with Zena and the new baby snake.

[mikem]

That's great news! I chop my pinks while they're still frozen. Not as messy. I also have a dedicated pair of scissors for cutting up worms. Looking forward to pics! :)

[kueluck]

Mike, I sliced the pinky while frozen, but still gross. And I also have a special pair of scissors I use for bugs and such for my frogs and toads. I just didn’t think the baby would be that small. I think she’s from a mid April batch.

Can I offer fish yet, or should I stick with the pinky worm stew for now.

[EasternGirl]

Red-sideds are simply gorgeous! I give my babies pinkies, worms, and fish...fresh fillet cut up into tiny pieces. They absolutely love trout. You will get used to cutting up pinkies...I don't even think about it when I do it anymore...I do it so often. Worms actually bother me more to cut up...I have to use a knife to get them into the little tiny pieces for the babies and I feel bad for the worms since they are alive. But my babies have to eat...and that is that...so I deal with it. Congrats on your new addition! And ummm...where are the pics btw? :D

[EasternGirl]

Oh...how about Ruby for a name? Ruby for a pretty red girl. And I am totally getting one of those hammocks...maybe one for each enclosure!

[mikem]

Make sure you cut the fish into tiny pieces. The size of the chopped pink parts and it'll be fine. Ruby is a pretty name. I like Peanut, lol! :p

[ProXimuS]

Glad to hear all is well.


I like Ruby too:D

[kueluck]

First pictures.
58265827582858295830
Second the name: Cleo
Why? When I first brought her home and put her in the tank she coiled up her body, raised her head like a cobra and it reminds me of Cleopatra. Don't know why, it just did. I was tossing around the names Zelda, Chloe and Cleo and decided on my first pick.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Nice looking baby you've got there, her colours are really beautiful.

[guidofatherof5]

Good looking little scrub.

[EasternGirl]

Lovely! But isn't Zena an eastern? The baby looks very red to me...do they have easterns that are that red...besides flames? Cleo is a nice name. I had a kitty named Cleopatra that I called Cleo.

[ProXimuS]

Very cute girl:) Like the name choice!

[kueluck]

Thankyouthankyouthankyou. Yes Zena is an Eastern. As for Cleo the container was marked something Het % something something red sided whatever. To some this makes a world of difference to me I don't care. I just wanted healthy female. I really wanted an adult but they are way out of my league in price. I just want a roomie for Zena. Now I just have to wait until Cleo grows up some.


Just how big should Cleo be to room with Zena? 2/3 the size? ½ maybe?

[guidofatherof5]

One of the best parts about keeping garters is watching them mature. I have vivid memories of my big girls when they were babies.
I can't help but see the baby in they now.

[Invisible Snake]

Just how big should Cleo be to room with Zena? 2/3 the size? ½ maybe? Ideally, they should roughly be about the same size if you are going to house them together, also keep in mind that Zena was a wildcaught snake and Cleo is a captive bred, so Zena might not be too fond of having a roommate, at least not in the very beginning.

[thamneil]

Cleo looks like shes going to be a very pretty snake when she gets bigger! Your Zena is quite the looker herself.

[kueluck]

I don't see much of Cleo, she says in hiding most of the time. I handle her a little each day but don't lift her out of the tank since she is to small to really hold onto. Today I put the UTH on and she burrowed down under the carefresh and headed right to the heat source. I can't find a hammock small enough for her tank so I went w/UTH instead. It's also hard to get pics of her since she is not one to lay still so photos are on the move.
5850

As for Zena, she is still the meaning of sweetness, and even giving me the stink-eye because I disturbed her nap.......well she is still the sweetest eastern ever.

5851

[ProXimuS]

Both very cute girls:)

[guidofatherof5]

They both look wonderful.

[Invisible Snake]

Cute pic of Zena!

[kueluck]

My little Cleo is getting ready to shed. Eyes were cloudy yesterday, color is dull, and today eyes clear, now just waiting. I put her in a nice warm, damp shed box earlier today…..waiting……………

[ProXimuS]

OO We'd love to see her shininess when she's done:D Hope all goes well!

[kueluck]

She completed her shed this evening. It was not in one piece and there was a small section on her back that didn't come off. I put her in a warm bath for a few minuets then lightly rubbed her back and it came off. Otherwise all is well on the snake side of my life.

5906

[ProXimuS]

She's so cute! She's going to be a very pretty adult:)

[kueluck]

I'll be happy when she is big enough to be with Zena. Cleo is so shy but when held she doesn't try to "fly" out of my hands, but then she doesn't settle down much either. If she is have a sweet as Zena is I'll be extremely happy.

What Cleo does best.........peak-n-hide. Now I think I should have bought 2 instead of one.
5907

[ProXimuS]

Awwww she looks like she's in the snow:D That's too cute!

[mikem]

That was my first thought too.. a child playing in snow! Very cute photo :)

[Invisible Snake]

I'll be happy when she is big enough to be with Zena. Cleo is so shy but when held she doesn't try to "fly" out of my hands, but then she doesn't settle down much either. If she is have a sweet as Zena is I'll be extremely happy.

What Cleo does best.........peak-n-hide. Now I think I should have bought 2 instead of one.
5907

Great pic!

[kueluck]

Changed up Cleo's tank today and as soon as I put the grapevine/plant part in she went right to the top. She not hiding as much and is settling in nicely. The bottom of the grapevine created a nice warm hide for her. It sits on the bottom of the tank so it can't shift, which is on top of reptile carpet, which is were the small UTH is. Now if I could just get her to use the water dish. When I put her in the water dish she shoots outta it like a cannon.
595259535955

And of course my sweet Zena is doing great. Eats like a champ.......maybe to well, and is such a great friend to have.

5954

[kueluck]

They call it a reptile ladder, I call it a snake hammock that fits a 10 gallon tank. I think I should start buying stock in PetCo.

5970
5971

[guidofatherof5]

Snake Hammock? sounds like a copyright infringement on Chris-uk's designed "Thammock" Call your lawyer Chris:D

[kueluck]

Nah-ah!! I'm not gonna copyright this, I'm just saying the Zoomed Lizard Ladder can also be USED as a snake hammock. I'm innocent here I say, I'm innocent. :p But they do LOVE to hang out in the hammocks.

[kueluck]

It's been almost 4 weeks and Cleo is growing, at least that's what my husband said, I really can't tell. But she's doing great, eats like a champ. And yesterday I switched her tank around, just a little.
60216022

[guidofatherof5]

Nice job Cleo.;)

[Invisible Snake]

Cleo's tank looks great, nice job.

[mikem]

Nice setup :) I bet she enjoys it!

[ProXimuS]

Looking good! She's such a pretty girl:)

[kueluck]

Cleo IS a pretty one, but she's a stinker. Every time I hold, which is about every other day, after she's been wriggling around between my fingers and finally settles down I rub her body, head or whatever and she poops on me. She doesn't fight me at this point and her head is usually in the resting position with no tongue flickering. Is she just relaxed or is this a defensive move? Zena has never done this, and I'll hold her for hours.

[ProXimuS]

LOL!:p Mine seems to do that on occasion too. Like when he does poop on me, it usually seems to be once he's calmed down and relaxed. Not when he's all wiggley:p

[kueluck]

Happy to report that yesterday Cleo had a perfect shed. This is the second one since I've had her (1st was on 7-7).

6102

Cleo is also up to 6 grams in weight which is up from 2 grams on 7-4. TJ said she was growing, I just don't quite see it. Zena weight has also gone up to 89 grams.

[kueluck]

It's feeding time, and I've read several thread about getting substrate ingested at feeding time. No worries here. Zena sits up on the grapevine in the cage and leans out on the edge to eat and Cleo has learned to sit in the hammock or ontop of her palm tree up off the floor. They are some cuties AND smarties.
6129612861276130

[ProXimuS]

Awesome pics! What good girls:D It's really funny to see how tiiiny Cleo's head is next to the hemostats:p

[Invisible Snake]

Nice set up, Cleo and Zena look great! What was on the menu for today?

[guidofatherof5]

It's feeding time, and I've read several thread about getting substrate ingested at feeding time. No worries here. Zena sits up on the grapevine in the cage and leans out on the edge to eat and Cleo has learned to sit in the hammock or ontop of her palm tree up off the floor. They are some cuties AND smarties.

Indeed they are.

[kueluck]

Fish of course, it's was Friday. They have a regular menu.......Mon mice (pinkies) Wed worms Fri fish
Nice set up, Cleo and Zena look great! What was on the menu for today?

[mikem]

I enjoy feeding day :)

[kueluck]

The show was AWESOME!! I don't remember the details on these, just know that they are beautiful to me.
6280This is my little black Mamba (Mike can tell ya what she is)
6281And this little girl, well an offer I couldn't refuse. All I remember is and Eastern with red.

[guidofatherof5]

Nice additions to the family.

[ProXimuS]

Possible dumb question alert: Is that really a Black Mamba?!:eek: Either way awesome/adorable! Cool Eastern too:D Nice additions!

[kibakiba]

Looks like a melanistic garter of some sort. Pretty sure it would be illegal, and not to mention extremely stupid to own a black mamba ;)

[ProXimuS]

That's what I was kind of figuring(both things), but figured it wouldn't hurt to be sure:p

[kueluck]

Melanistic sounds about right. I just like the sound of black mamba, thought about calling her BM for short but................

[mikem]

My mom was in nursing for many years, so when i hear BM, I think of something else, lol!

Melanistic and erythristic easterns :)

And it was nice to meet you, Gail!

[ProXimuS]

Hehe, yea, I think she's too pretty for a name like BM:p Maybe you could call her Mamba:)

[kueluck]

Thanks Mike...........and we had a blast w/ya today. Also the guy that was w/Scott went to check out the "florida garters" which were florida ribbons, so you were correct.
My mom was in nursing for many years, so when i hear BM, I think of something else, lol!

Melanistic and erythristic easterns :)

And it was nice to meet you, Gail!

[mikem]

Cool. Didn't think they were "Florida everglade garters", haha! You planning on going to Charlotte show in a couple weeks? If so, I'll see ya there!

[kueluck]

I might. Still looking for a dust free substrate. I did pick up some sani chips, I think that's what they are called. Gonna give this a try when I get back home and hope the wheezin' doesn't kick in w/Zena again.

[kueluck]

63266327Decided on Mona for the name. I thought of the Mona Lisa and her jet black hair. And she eats like a champ & enjoys hangin out on the grape vine in the plants
6328Still haven't decided on a name yet. Just found out she was born 8-8-12. No wonder she is so tiny & thin, but she did eat yesterday. :D She likes to burrow down in the carefresh. Oh, and long walks on the beach & walkin' in the rain.
6329These little ones make Cleo look huge and well Zena, she looks like a log compared to them.

[guidofatherof5]

Nice group.

[kueluck]

Thanks Steve. I hate that I went over my limit, but I was told by some keepers of the garters that 4 of them in a 40 gal breeder tank will be fine. I'll put up 3 hammocks, just so they can all find a place to get away. And ya just never know. One of those 100 gallon tanks I see on craigslist might just end up in my living room.

[ProXimuS]

They do make Cleo look big:p They're both so pretty! Congratulations on your new additions:D

[kueluck]

I'm guessing I shouldn't worry to much, but I do. This little one isn't eating good. She ate a few bites of worms on Monday, and when I offered food today she grabbed it, had it in her mouth, then spit it out. I tried for 30 min to get her to eat, but just turned her face away. After she crawled around in the chopped up worm/pinkie dish I gave her a warm bath to clean her off. She did poop so she's not plugged, one thing I don't have to worry about. Just how long can a baby go without food. She is 1 week old today. She also is not flighty like Mona is. She is very calm and seems relaxed when in hand. I just hope this is a sign of trust and sweetness, not illness. At this point I don't want to get attached, just in case, but it's hard. She's like a mini-Zena.
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[-MARWOLAETH-]

Just remember that they have evolved the ability to go without food for a long time.You should only worry if she's off food for weeks.Maybe she spat the worm out because the bits where to big.

[kueluck]

Wm, I cut the pieces 1/2 the size of the head. So far it seems like a good rule for the other 3, but I'll watch more closely on that. Thanks.

[kibakiba]

It could just be that she didnt like the taste, maybe she wanted a different kind of food.

[Invisible Snake]

The same thing happens with 1 of my babies, she grabs a live/dead guppy in her mouth and then drops it. I came to the conclusion that she does not like being fed in a different enclosure such as a feeding tank. So i have been leaving live guppies in a water dish in her enclosure over night and when I check in the morning they're all gone. I'm guessing the babies in this situation get overly stressed when taken out of their enclosures, also keep in mind that your baby is new and still adjusting to its new home =]

[EasternGirl]

So...someone else has gone over her personal limit...hmmmm? Lol... I love the hammock in the enclosure. Cee Cee also comes out of her tank for feeding...must be an eastern thing...;). Cleo looks good and I like the new additions.

What is a black mamba?

[mikem]

What is a black mamba?

You've never heard of the black mamba?:eek: Black mamba - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_mamba)

[kueluck]

When I got her home on Sunday she ate a few bites of salmon/worm mix, then one bit of worm on Mon. I tried worm/pinky last night and then again this morning (same location as Sun & Mon) since she didn eat last night. I guess I don't need to worry, but because she is so young and small I DO worry.
The same thing happens with 1 of my babies, she grabs a live/dead guppy in her mouth and then drops it. I came to the conclusion that she does not like being fed in a different enclosure such as a feeding tank. So i have been leaving live guppies in a water dish in her enclosure over night and when I check in the morning they're all gone. I'm guessing the babies in this situation get overly stressed when taken out of their enclosures, also keep in mind that your baby is new and still adjusting to its new home =]

[EasternGirl]

Holy cannoli! That black mamba is punk rock! They are illegal to keep in the U.S.? That would def be one I would want if I was keeping hots. I so have to get a book on venomous snakes.

[kueluck]

She ate a few bites of worm/salmon on Sun, and one bite of worm on Mon. I tried the same routine last night and this morning but nothing was eaten. I know I don't need to worry, but because she is so small and young I do.
The same thing happens with 1 of my babies, she grabs a live/dead guppy in her mouth and then drops it. I came to the conclusion that she does not like being fed in a different enclosure such as a feeding tank. So i have been leaving live guppies in a water dish in her enclosure over night and when I check in the morning they're all gone. I'm guessing the babies in this situation get overly stressed when taken out of their enclosures, also keep in mind that your baby is new and still adjusting to its new home =]

[mikem]

Gail, she might not be hungry right now. Give her a couple days and try again.
Marnie, it depends on state and local laws. I see them for sale occasionally at reptile shows.

[Steveo]

I believe most states require a permit for hots and also a permit to ship them over state lines. I have also heard that some shipping companies won't move them if you tell them they're hot.

I occasionally browse them on kingsnake. I've always liked the look of copperheads but it just doesn't seem to be worth the risk and extra expense.

[ConcinusMan]

Holy cannoli! That black mamba is punk rock! They are illegal to keep in the U.S.?

This guy keeps them, along with a myriad of other hots. If you're into hots, then follow this guy on youtube. You'll get your fill.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbt3QrWdqI8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBWTGcxDGow

[kueluck]

I had no choice........it was an offer NO ONE would refuse.
So...someone else has gone over her personal limit...hmmmm? Lol... I love the hammock in the enclosure. Cee Cee also comes out of her tank for feeding...must be an eastern thing...;). Cleo looks good and I like the new additions.

What is a black mamba?

[ConcinusMan]

What is a black mamba?

A very effective way to commit suicide fast.:p

"Its poison is neuro-toxic. Unlike most poisonous snakes where the venom travels slowly through the blood stream, allowing a victim time to get treatment and to isolate the poison using a tourniquet, the black mamba's poison goes straight for the nerves, attacking the central nervous system and shutting down major organs. Twenty minutes after being bitten you may be lose the ability to talk. After one hour you're probably comatose, and by six hours, without an antidote, you are dead."

Sometimes it just floors me the way that viperkeeper handles both black and green mambas. It's like he has a death wish. Sometimes he doesn't even use a hook but instead simply grabs them by the tail and slings them around.

[mikem]

I do enjoy his videos quite a bit, but I don't necessarily agree with everything he does.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, same here. The first thing that comes to mind is...

keeping those snakes in the first place.

[kueluck]

The little one (I really need to pick a name) ate like a champ last night, so I guess that means they eat only when they are hunger? This means Zena is hungry 24/7. She is kinda like the garbage disposal, what the others don't eat she will......I guess I really need to stop this, she's up to 112 g. Which brings me to the question, what is a healthy weight? Also Cleo is growing and doing great. She completed her shed this morning, which makes it 23 days since her last shed. She's also gained 4 grams since then so I'm guessing this is the norm? Which makes sense since she is outgrowing her skin.....(rambling). So the reason for the post is all is well in the Hill House on the snake side......and all the other sides and corners too.
63796381

[guidofatherof5]

I very rarely check the weight of my snakes (unless they are gravid or have other health issues)
I visually make sure they are normal looking. Filled out but no scale spread. The males are slimmer and leaner looking but still filled out.
Hope this helps.

[Invisible Snake]

Zena is a big girl! How long is she now?

[kueluck]

Zena is 22 inch, but then from vent to end of tail is only 2 inch. She had the end cut off, don't know how, that's how she showed up at the rescue place. She just seems FAT, and I worry about healthy issues. There really aren't any standards that I can find on how thick is healthy.

[kueluck]

Well from what I see, scale spread is there!! Should I cut back on her food? Feed same days, just less?
I very rarely check the weight of my snakes (unless they are gravid or have other health issues)
I visually make sure they are normal looking. Filled out but no scale spread. The males are slimmer and leaner looking but still filled out.
Hope this helps.

[guidofatherof5]

Well from what I see, scale spread is there!! Should I cut back on her food? Feed same days, just less?

Sure, give it a try. What is you currant schedule?

[kueluck]

Zena gets two small pinkies Mon, two earthworms Wed, and salmon on Fri = to two small pinkies. She's always looking for food when I give her that portion, so far the other three stop eating when they are full. I think Zena is hollow.

[guidofatherof5]

Refresh my memory, how old and how long is Zena? Photos?

[kueluck]

Zena is 22 inch, but then from vent to end of tail is only 2 inch. She had the end cut off in the wild. And since she is w/c, no idea on age. She was 19 inch and 62 grams when I got her on 4-28-12 from the rescue.

Refresh my memory, how old and how long is Zena? Photos?

[guidofatherof5]

If you are seeing some scale spread you might think about reducing feeding to 2 days a week rather then 3 or reducing the amount of food on those 3 food days.

[EasternGirl]

Sorry to hijack your thread here Gail...but I just have to respond to the hot topic. Thanks for the videos. It is illegal to keep them in Delaware. Mike used to keep copperheads. Someday, Mike, Joe and I are all going to live in that snake house in Idaho and keep hots...right guys? You will all read about me being some 70 year old crazy lady that died getting attacked by a house full of black mambas...lol.

Back to the regularly scheduled program...please keep us posted on Zena, Gail.

[kueluck]

Well I started the new eating plan with Zena yesterday and it went well. She usually gets 2 pinkies, so I took one, cut it in 2 pieces and she seemed content with that. The other three do not eat like Zena, you know, the gimme, gimme, gimme look. They eat until they have a small bulge then turn away. I think Zena would eat until she would pop. Does this have anything to do with her being w/c and the others c/b? I dunno, but I don't want to have any fat, that's f-a-t not p-h-a-t snakes here, not sure what kind of health issues that would bring on.

On another note.........I've chosen Sadie for the name of the erythristic. No reason, it just kinda "came" to me. She has that Zena sweetness to her. When I pick her up and hold her she is calm and just kinda checks out the view.

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Now Mona on the other hand is a whole different story. Thrash...thrash....musk...poop, and then chomp(just twice). I really hope she out grows this. I may have to change her name to Beaoch. (bee-ah-ch).

[ProXimuS]

I love the name Sadie:) It's a very cute/sweet sounding name, which really seems to fit your little baby!

[EasternGirl]

You know I have a Sadie...right? My big radix girl from Steve. I have always loved that name. Good name! Of course, my Sadie has a bit of attitude...but she can also be very, very sweet.

[kueluck]

I knew I heard that name before, just couldn't figure out where. I guess as long as both don't show up at a party wearing the same outfit................ :p

[kueluck]

Friday....which means time to head into the weekend, but for the girls it's SALMON DAY!!!. They all love the fish, so what to do after a nice meal? What else but sit back and rest.
6463Cleo hangin out in ther hammock.............of course
6464Sadie resting in the greenery
6465Mona hunkered down in the carefresh just above the UTH. Didn't eat much, but then as you can see she is ready to shed.
6466No rest for Zena, she needs to work off some of her thickness. Cutting her food into smaller pieces seem to work for her.
6467Head shot. Yes, she is my #1 garter friend.

[guidofatherof5]

They all look great.
I love Zena's stubby tail.
Don't be too drastic with the food and Zena. She's looking pretty good.

[snake man]

Some snakes and thier greenery ;).

[ProXimuS]

Great pics:D

I love Mona!!!!:)

[kueluck]

She doesn't get everyone’s left overs anymore, just her portion, and I cut it into pieces instead of giving her one big chuck. The other three eat enough to get that “bulge” then turn away. Zena will eat until all is gone. She's a thamnophidisposal.
They all look great.
I love Zena's stubby tail.
Don't be too drastic with the food and Zena. She's looking pretty good.

[jitami]

Beautiful babies! They all look great!

[Invisible Snake]

Great pics, thanks for sharing :)

[EasternGirl]

Lovelies! Thanks for sharing those pics! Sadie said to tell you that she doesn't mind sharing the name...but if your snake shows up here trying to snuggle with Cee Cee or wearing a similar hat...Sadie will be very jealous.

[kueluck]

no worries, my Sadie is southern girl and has no desire to head north;)
Lovelies! Thanks for sharing those pics! Sadie said to tell you that she doesn't mind sharing the name...but if your snake shows up here trying to snuggle with Cee Cee or wearing a similar hat...Sadie will be very jealous.

[kueluck]

This morning I saw that Mona was ready to shed, but it just didn't look like a good shed, so I put her in the shed box for 30 min. (which I've done twice over the past 2 days) I checked in on her and saw 2 pieces of shed but it looked like one eye cap didn't come off. Great, now I have to deal with a flighty baby. So I call on my husband to bring me a warm wet paper towel & my extra pair of reading glasses. So with 2 pairs of glasses, a bright light and a warm paper towel I started to gentle rub the side of her head and surprisingly she did not fight me on this. Got the eye cap off and all is well. TJ said that maybe she "knew" I was trying to help her. I know they are intelligent, but..............................

Here's Mona in her new skin. It's hard getting a good picture on a baby.
6473

[ProXimuS]

OOO How shiny:D She looks great!

[Invisible Snake]

Mona looks nice and shiny. Does she feel different to the touch than your other garters?
When I pick up my melanistics I swear their skin/scales feels different than my other garters, or maybe it's just the way my brain interprets it, like an illusion lol.

[kueluck]

The only difference between Mona and the other 3 is that she is NOT a friendly snake, at least not at this point. Even my tiny Sadie who is 3 weeks old enjoys being held. I hope this changes since she is so pretty, but if not I may sell her in 6 months. I'm not a sit and look at the critter kinda person. Even my knot of toads get handled on a regular basis. Guess this is why I don't have fish.

[EasternGirl]

I'm glad you got that shed off. I really do believe they know when we are trying to help. When Cee Cee had a bad RI and I had to give her injections...I was so afraid it would make her terrified of me. But somehow, it actually helped to build trust between us. I know she knew I was helping her to get better. Yesterday, I had to help her with a shed too. She was freaking out and musking me when I was getting the shed off...but once she was back in her tank, she was looking at me through the glass with a sweet look on her face as if to say "thank you".

[kueluck]

Some of these girl shed so fast. One day cloudy eyes, next day clear eyes, next day taadaaah. Sadie in her fresh new skin. The little ones are so hard to measure, but her shed was 8 inch. I know this isn't an accurate measure of her, but it's as close as it's gonna get for now. She seems fascinated by the ceiling fan and or light.
6529

[guidofatherof5]

Very nice. They are such curious animals.

[Invisible Snake]

Neat. You can already see faint signs of her starting to color up.

[EasternGirl]

She's gorgeous. I often see Cee Cee and Sadie staring intently at something....and I will look to try to figure out what the heck it is that they are looking at. Usually it ends up being the top of the tank or a light from the thermostat or something. So funny. Also...I have noticed that some of my snakes will shed quickly...like you said...I can always determine shed time...eyes cloud...eyes clear up...next day, shed. Others take a little while...like Cee Cee. Once her eyes clear up, it can be anywhere from a couple of days to a week before she sheds.

This also brings something to mind that I wanted to mention...we had discussed on here before having a difficult time seeing the signs of an impending shed in albinos. For Possum and Hermes...this is very true. However, I noticed the other day before Little Joe shed...that I actually could see his eyes cloud over. Really interesting on an albino!

[ConcinusMan]

Eyes get a subtle lavender tint to them but not always prounounced. But if fail to notice that, yellows and reds seem to fade or wash out too.

[EasternGirl]

I have seen the fading...and the circle around the pupil getting more pronounced. I had just never seen the clouding on an albino before.

[kueluck]

Ok, claiming my thread back ;) :p.
Zena doing her "mole" imitation. Oh how she loves to burrow in the sani-chips and no wheezing coming from her. I love this stuff as much as she does.
6603

[ProXimuS]

How cute:) Glad the sani-chips are working out for her, in more than one way:p

[kueluck]

The shot is real blurry but it's just for comparison, and Zena & Cleo are not housed together. This was just so I can get a size difference. Is the reason snakes should be the same size when housed together, so the big ones doesn't crush the smaller one?
6604

[Invisible Snake]

Is the reason snakes should be the same size when housed together, so the big ones doesn't crush the smaller one?

Not really, it's because if the smaller snake has even the faintest smell of fish/worms/pinks etc. on him/her, the larger snake will eat the smaller snake causing them both to die.

[ProXimuS]

Why would the bigger one die?

[Invisible Snake]

Why would the bigger one die?

To be honest I'm really not sure, but I think it's because a garter snakes stomach isn't designed for digesting snakes.

It also happens with boas, pythons and corn snakes.

[kueluck]

Took some pics of Mona and Sadie (just shed today), and these two girls are growing fast. Sadie has gone from 1 to 8 grams in 31 days, and is such a little sweetie. Mona went from 3 to 8 grams in 31 days also, and has calmed down a lot!! I hold her at least once a day for about 20 min, and for the past week no messes on me, and no attempts to bite. :D Sorry Mike but I think she's a keeper. ;) As for Zena, she's gone from 112 to 138 grams in 41 days, and I thought I had cut back on her food. :( I'm afraid she's getting to fat. Even when Zena is getting ready to shed, she still eats like a champ and enjoys hanging out on the couch with us. I love this girl.
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[mikem]

Haha, no problem Gail! Glad she's warming up to you :D

[kueluck]

About 5 days ago I noticed this “spot” on Zena's eye. I tried to wipe it was a moist warm cloth but nothing. Her last shed was in July and both eye caps were on the shed. She's also be very dull looking and sometimes sounds “crinkly” if that makes sense. So I'm guessing she's getting ready to shed again?? I can't remember the process for her since it's been several months and the babies do their shedding in a matter of days start to finish. I've also put a moist hide in her tank and also put her in a moist warm shed box for 30 min. Any input would be appreciated.
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[ProXimuS]

Is it possible that it's just a tiny piece of an eye cap? Other than that I've got no ideas...

Hope everythings turns out ok:)

[EasternGirl]

It sounds like a possible retained shed but she doesn't look like she has a retained shed in the full body shot above. The spot on the eye does look like a bit of retained shed though. It sounds like you are doing the right things...with the shed box and all. Maybe someone else can give some additional input. I wanted to ask about the sani-chips...I guess I missed something. Was she wheezing in other substrate? Because Cee Cee has problems with that too.

[kueluck]

On her last shed the eye caps where complete. And this just showed up a few days ago. I'm afraid to mess with her eye, I don't want to hurt her.

Marnie, yes she was wheezing in the aspen, carefresh and ultra carefresh. But since I've had her in the sani-chips, no wheezing. I LOVE this stuff.

[EasternGirl]

Hmmm....good to know. Cee Cee was wheezing in the carefresh and I changed to aspen...she seems better in the aspen...but where do you get the sani-chips? I would like to try those.

I'm not sure what to tell you about the eye. Do you have a vet?

[kueluck]

I got the sani-chips here Native Earth Aspen Sani Chips 2.2 Cubic Foot Bedding | PetFoodDirect (http://www.petfooddirect.com/Product/9215/Native-Earth-Aspen-Sani-Chips-2.2-Cubic-Foot-Bedding) but some pet stores carry it also. And yes I have a vet. The eye thing isn't changing, by that I mean getting bigger or smaller. I just wonder if it IS a shed process going on since she's so dull looking. If it doesn't improve over the weekend I'll take her in next week. It doesn’t seem to effect her eye sight either.

[ConcinusMan]

Even if there was a dust issue, which I doubt, it wouldn't cause wheezing. A few quick sneezes to clear the nostrils would be expected if it was a dust issue. Not wheezing. Something else is wrong. I've never had an issue with any of the substrates you mentioned, even if they happen to be a bit dusty. Wheezing due to a RI will come and go regardless. Doesn't mean the snake is getting better and I certainly don't think wheezing is caused by your substrate.

This sounds like an infection. That's my opinion.

RI's in colubrids are most often caused by keeping them too warm, and lack of a wide enough temperature gradient so that they can regulate their own temperature. The infectious culprit is usually just common household bacteria that is normally not harmful. Baytril suspension (vet visit required) clears it up and as long as conditions are corrected, it usually doesn't come back.

[kueluck]

I don't know about all that, but I do know that once I changed her to sani-chips the wheezing stop. :o

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...Cee Cee has chronic respiratory issues and she does wheeze with certain substrates...especially if they are dusty. As soon as I took the dusty substrate out and switched it...she stopped wheezing all the time. Ahh...PetFoodDirect...good place. Thanks.

[ConcinusMan]

I don't know about all that, but I do know that once I changed her to sani-chips the wheezing stop. :o

I still think there's an underlying cause other than dust. Wheezing or any other symptoms always comes and goes with bacterial RI's. This often leads the keeper to think the snake is getting better, only to have symptoms return. If you have a chance (or can make it happen otherwise) you need to look at the snake's mouth/throat inside. What color is it? Any sign of mucous in the throat? It should be nice and pink and no sign of mucous. With RI's the mouth is often greyish and mucous can be seen far back in the throat.

The sooner it's treated with antibiotics, the better the prognosis.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

To be honest I'm really not sure, but I think it's because a garter snakes stomach isn't designed for digesting snakes.You should tell that to vagrans:p.Snakes are easily digested because of they are basically all muscle and protein is easily digested.When a snake dies after eating another snake it's usually because it's to big and struggles causing internal hemorrhaging.

[Invisible Snake]

Hey any updates with Zena's eye?

[kueluck]

No, and she is starting to go into shed so if it IS a retained shed I'm going to watch closely to make sure it comes off. When any of the girls shed I check it out to make sure it's complete, but then these old eyes may not have caught it. I guess it's time to order one of the lighted magnifing glasses.

And thanks for asking. :D

[EasternGirl]

Gail...Cee Cee was diagnosed with chronic respiratory problems. The vet said it probably had to do with her living outside for a couple of years before I had her. This is why she is so sensitive to dusty substrate. You may want to take Zena to a vet and see if she has chronic RIs. When Cee Cee's breathing acts up...I increase the temp and humidity in her tank and she usually feels better in a day or so. I also, like you, am very careful about which substrate I use. But if her breathing gets really bad...she has to go on a course of antibiotics.

Any sign of Cleo?

[kueluck]

Since I've changed her to sani-chips, no wheezing at all, and yes of course if any breathing issues come up off to the Doc she goes. And no, :( Cleo is still MIA. On Oct 10th is the 60 day quarantine for Mona and Sadie before they could go in with Cleo. My hope is that Cleo has seen this on the calendar and will show up then. Or she's waiting for the new mondo condo that I'm building.
Gail...Cee Cee was diagnosed with chronic respiratory problems. The vet said it probably had to do with her living outside for a couple of years before I had her. This is why she is so sensitive to dusty substrate. You may want to take Zena to a vet and see if she has chronic RIs. When Cee Cee's breathing acts up...I increase the temp and humidity in her tank and she usually feels better in a day or so. I also, like you, am very careful about which substrate I use. But if her breathing gets really bad...she has to go on a course of antibiotics.

Any sign of Cleo?

[kueluck]

Since this is my first fall season with garters I'm not sure about habits and personality changes. The past couple of weeks Zena almost acts depressed. She'll eat worms and salmon, but not like she usually does, which means comes shooting outta the tank for food. And she turns her nose up at pinkies, and she'll eat a little tilapia, but definitely NOT happy with it. And yes she is pooping. She lays in her cave a lot, but when I take her out all is normal. Could it be that fall is coming and when she goes into her hide she is all alone? Since I've had her (April 2012) she's always been alone in the tank but my thought is that come fall they start to come together. Sadie and Mona are way to small to put in with her, and Cleo, well there is no sign of her. I've thought about looking for a year old female to put in with her but then it's a two month quarantine and is it all worth it. I don't plan on brumating them over the winter if I can help it.
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[kueluck]

Sadie and Mona went to visit Zena and it's amazing how much Zena perks up when company is around. I wish I could leave them in there, but I don't want to find crushed dead babies. At this time I was hoping to have Cleo move in w/Zena.

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[ProXimuS]

Awww, how cute! Hopefully the babies will hurry up and grow they can all be together:)

[guidofatherof5]

Very nice.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

The picture is to cute:)

[ConcinusMan]

You should tell that to vagrans:p.Snakes are easily digested because of they are basically all muscle and protein is easily digested.When a snake dies after eating another snake it's usually because it's to big and struggles causing internal hemorrhaging.

Keratin, which is a protein, is not digested easily, if at all. That includes claws/our fingernails, hair, horns, feathers, and that layer of skin that your snake sheds off periodically. It is similar to chitin, (insect exoskeleton) which also cannot be digested.

And I've seen pythons die when their owners fed them dead meals that were too large. Some of them even "exploded" so to speak. If a meal cannot be digested in a timely manner, it begins to ferment from the inside, then gas can build up so fast that the snake doesn't have time to vomit, (they can't just burp out gas like we do) so the snake simply explodes from the gas pressure. This is why I don't like to stuff babies with oversized meals.

[ConcinusMan]

Gail...Cee Cee was diagnosed with chronic respiratory problems. The vet said it probably had to do with her living outside for a couple of years before I had her. This is why she is so sensitive to dusty substrate. You may want to take Zena to a vet and see if she has chronic RIs. When Cee Cee's breathing acts up...I increase the temp and humidity in her tank and she usually feels better in a day or so. I also, like you, am very careful about which substrate I use. But if her breathing gets really bad...she has to go on a course of antibiotics.

Any sign of Cleo?

Sounds like a generic answer a vet uses to ensure a customer that they know what they are doing, even though they don't have a real answer. Just to clarify, "chronic respiratory problems" is not the same as RI. It's also not a diagnosis. RI is an infection and it requires antibiotics or it will eventually kill the snake. Antibiotics will work if it's bacterial. Different antibiotics will work if its fungal. If it's viral, good luck.

How long have you had Cee Cee? Not long enough to determine what is chronic and what is not, I suspect. You can't just "take them to see a vet to see if she has chronic RI's". She either keeps having RI's and has to keep being treated for them, or she hasn't. The former would be "chronic respiratory problems"

Now, unless your vet bothered with a transtracheal wash and did a culture on it to rule out fungal causes and/or did tests to rule out parasitic causes, then you're not treating the primary problem. Then, "her breathing gets really bad...she has to go on a course of antibiotics" will continue to happen. Unfortunately, that's only because you're treating a secondary infection with the antibiotics, which will prevent fatal pneumonia but it won't treat the underlying cause of her "chronic respiratory" problems, which as I mentioned, are probably not caused by the bacteria you're fighting off with the antibiotics.

"chronic respiratory problems" that keep coming back, with or without a secondary bacterial infection that clears up with antibiotics, are extremely difficult to diagnose the underlying cause which can be a virus which are difficult if not impossible to test for so they are often missed. If the vet sees clear signs of a bacterial infection, they treat it with a popular antibiotic such as Baytril, and leave it at that. That leaves the primary cause undiagnosed and untreated so your snake just keeps getting secondary bacterial infections. Each time your snake gets one, there is an increasing chance that the secondary bacterial infection will become resistent to the antibiotics until eventually, you've spend all your money, the antibiotics aren't working, and the snake dies anyway.

All because the primary cause wasn't diagnosed or treated. Some viral infections can't be diagnosed though because there is no test for them. Instead the vet just said your snake has "chronic respiratory problems" which is not a diagnosis.

Now the snake in this thread has an RI is what I think, which hasn't been treated. If it's treated with antibiotics and it goes away, then it's simply a bacterial (the most common kind) RI. The longer such an infection goes untreated, the worse off the snake is, and the damage done will make the snake more vulerable to repeatedly returning (chronic) infections. The sooner it's treated, the better the outcome and like I said, if you see the obvious signs, which you do, it's already been there a longer time than you even noticed, and it's advanced. Next stage is moving into the lung and then it's over.

Sorry for the long post/editing but there is a lot to say about this. Too many posts are oversimplifiying the issue like that vet did.

[kueluck]

I've been able to get a little of the retained eye cap, but there is still some there. I've put her in moist warm shed box, put a shed aid on this twice a day, used a moist warm towel and gently rubbed the eyeball, but this is not letting go. When rubbing this, I can feel the "tug" of the edge, but can't get a hold of it. She is such a sweetheart about this, and even with all the pinning her down and "man handling" she has not tried to bit me, or musk or eliminate on me either. She just kinda gives me the look as if to say "why are you doing this to me, I thought you loved me?" Would a Vet be able to help me or should I wait until her next shed and see what happens? She is real dull, so I hope she'll go into shed soon.
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[guidofatherof5]

I have never had a problem waiting until the next shed happens. Sometimes the retained cap can fuse back to the new lens. If it doesn't pop off with minimal assistance I would leave it alone, you don't want to damage the eye.

[kueluck]

Thanks Steve. It's been driving me nuts since I've read about retained eye caps being the cause of eye infections then blindness. She's been such a sweetheart through this whole thing.

[ConcinusMan]

Good advice steve. You don't want to go ripping a retained cap off if it's already fused. If you catch it right away, like right after your snake just shed, sometimes just a gentle rub with a pencil eraser will break it loose.

[kueluck]

I just don't know how I missed this, but I'm going to wait for the next shed and if it doesn't come off then, well off to the Vet it is. I thought I had seen both caps on her shed in July, but then I've also gotten stronger reading glasses since then too. I got a magnifying glass to do a good inspection from now on.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Sometimes a dab of mineral oil helps with eye caps.


i just don't know how i missed this, but i'm going to wait for the next shed and if it doesn't come off then, well off to the vet it is. I thought i had seen both caps on her shed in july, but then i've also gotten stronger reading glasses since then too. I got a magnifying glass to do a good inspection from now on.

[kueluck]

Shawn, I saw that on YouTube. They said it dissolves the eye-cap, I'm going to look at Wholefoods to see if they carry a food grade mineral oil. But this time around I'm going to wait for the next shed, maybe. It taunts me to remove it, I hear it calling to me........remove meeeee......remove meeee.

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[guidofatherof5]

Looking at that photo I would say leave it alone. Eye caps should come off in 1 piece.
That retained cap has fused with the new one. In my opinion the risk is too great that the eye will be injured.

[kueluck]

Like telling a little boy, DON'T PICK AT IT!! I'll try to fight the urge.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I would leave it on until she sheds but if it don't come off then you might need to put some mineral oil on it.

like telling a little boy, don't pick at it!! I'll try to fight the urge.

[kueluck]

Zena shed today and it was not an easy one. First the end of her tail started, then small holes in the center started. She looked like she was wearing a loose fitting pant leg but the head seemed to be tight. I watched her open her mouth like a yawn, but I think she was trying to loosen the skin, then she did slow rubbing laps in her cage. I put her in the warm moist hide this morning for about 30 min then back into her cage. I came home and found lots of pieces parts of shed in the cage, but the head was still attached, loose, but still attached. So I "helped" with the removal. I held her head down and very slowly started to peel the skin, neck to nose since it was not loose any where else. I saw both eye caps come off, and then checked her out with a lighted magnifying glass. Not sure why all the issues since the cage humidity stays 50-60%, there is also a moist hide in there all the time but I have not seen her go into it. She also does not soak in the dish, none of mine do. When I do put them in water, be it their dishes or the tub they seen to hate it and just want out. If in the tube they head for the float I have in there for them. I guess they didn't get the memo on being water snakes. After all this she was breathing kind of hard and was kind of, sort of wheezing, or maybe more like a whistling sound, then stopped once she calmed down. She's got a 10 am appointment tomorrow at the Vet.

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[guidofatherof5]

That eye looking great. It was worth the wait.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Zena is one pretty snake.It's good to hear her eye is back to normal.:D

[ProXimuS]

Woa! Her eye looks great:D Way to go Zena and Gail!

[Lisa4john]

She is a beauty. I too am glad the shed helped her eye. Hope she gets a clean bill of health at the vet. :)

[kueluck]

No RI for Zena. The Vet said she appears to be in great health & she took the exam like a champ,no strikes, musking or elimination of any sort. As for the occasional wheezy type thing, he thinks it may be like asthma is to humans since it only happens when she is stressed, like when I put her in the tub for laps or exercise her up and down the stairs. The other possibility could be scar tissue that developed from parasites that she was treated for when I first got her. Any way, it puts my mind as ease.