Succesful mating?

[GarterCZ]

Hi guys,

I posted my new male T.sauritus in february and after a short quarantine and fecal tests, I considered him healthy so I decided to try to put him to the female's in march.
After about a week or two when the snakes lived together, the female shed(ovulation shed?) and then they almost immediately started to copulate, that was on the march 19th and they continued every next day for a few hours for almost a week.
Since that time, the female was feeding furiously and gained some weight.
Today, april 16th she shed again and the male is not interested in her at all.
Was this the postovulation shed? And does it mean the mating was succesful and I should expect a litter of baby snakes in june? :confused:

Some snake pornography in the picture:D

[mustang]

hmm, lets seee some pics of the female then i can give you more answers. but if they kept at it that long, either theyll be succesfull, or the worlds worst couple!

[kibakiba]

Did you see a lockup? Females tend to drag males around after locking up.

[GarterCZ]

Yep, she did drag the male a bit around the tank :)
and I've seen the lockup, the picture was actually taken before it, I just wanted to make a picture as fast as possible and then leave them in calm to not interrupt them.
For a couple of days now, the female spends almost all the time in a hide and comes out only for food, she used to crawl all around the tank, is this possibly a sign of gravidity?
I may be asking dumb questions, but I've never bred snakes before and I am so excited about it :)

Thank you guys

[guidofatherof5]

If you saw a lockup I would get a calendar out and mark that day. Not sure of the gestation for T.sauritus (Eastern Ribbon).
My garters usually give birth somewhere between 60-80 days.
Best of luck with her.
It would be good to start preparing for the babies now.

[katach]

My possibly gravid NW hides all day too. She only comes out once a day, does a lap around the tank, gets a drink, and goes back to her favorite hide.

[GarterCZ]

My possibly gravid NW hides all day too. She only comes out once a day, does a lap around the tank, gets a drink, and goes back to her favorite hide.

The same with mine , except for now because she's hungry, and she's gaining weight from day to day.
The male looks like a complete shoe lace in comparison :D

[EasternGirl]

Yep...same with Cee Cee...she just hides all day...the only time she comes out is to get a drink, or to move from her warm hide to her cool hide. Last night she came out and I thought maybe it was baby time...but I think she was just looking at something. And talk about males looking small next to gravid females...everyone that comes to my house asks if Seeley is Cee Cee's baby...I'm like..."Um no...that is her baby daddy."....:D.

Cee Cee and Seeley: 4794

[GarterCZ]

You've got a neat couple there :)

At first, I was a little bit nervous about the female eating the male when I put them together just because the female was so HUGE in comparison, but they look like a happy couple now, despite the girl seems a bit annoyed and moving away every time the male encounter her.
I guess he'd like to mate again, but he'll have to wait for the next spring :D
She'll get some pinkies tomorrow to get some more protein for the babies :)

[EasternGirl]

Thanks. I was a bit nervous when I first put them together too...but they totally love each other. Cee Cee is very protective of Seeley. If I go into the enclosure to remove him, she will get very restless and upset and strike at my hand. When I first put them together, Cee Cee did the same thing, she would get very annoyed and flip her tail all over the place and knock Seeley clear across the tank when he tried to approach her. She stopped doing that after a while. They are together all the time now...they seem to get upset if I separate them. Good luck...I hope your girl is gravid!

[GarterCZ]

Thx, fingers crossed for you too, I hope she'll deliver a healthy litter :)

[EasternGirl]

Thanks...she had stillborns last summer so I'm not sure what is going to happen. She wasn't brumated either so I could be looking at jellies or stillborns...just hoping that maybe there will be a couple of live babies in the mix. I know something better happen soon or the poor girl is going to explode! :D

[ConcinusMan]

It certainly sounds like a litter is on the way. A quick google search says that average gestation period is 90 days but I would say that you'll likely see babies as early as 60 days, on up to 90 days.

I've had T. s. concinnus' go as long as 110 days, or as little as 58 days from mating day, before giving birth.

[GarterCZ]

The female refuses to eat today and just keeps basking...Is this normal behaviour? I thought that gravid females eat like acid, and she did all the time, but it's a week since last feeding when she ate normally and she shows no interest in the food at all today :(
Since she's basking, I rised the temperature in the tank and I hope it will help...

[guidofatherof5]

The female refuses to eat today and just keeps basking...Is this normal behaviour? I thought that gravid females eat like acid, and she did all the time, but it's a week since last feeding when she ate normally and she shows no interest in the food at all today :(
Since she's basking, I rised the temperature in the tank and I hope it will help...

A girl's prerogative I guess:D

[Invisible Snake]

Usually gravid females tend to go off feed when they are about to give birth.

[GarterCZ]

Usually gravid females tend to go off feed when they are about to give birth.

I googled some pictures of highly gravid thamnophis females and my one is almost as fat as these now...
I heard that female garters and ribbons can hold the sperms inside them even for a few years, so maybe she is gravid from a mating that occured earlier? I ended her winter pause in february(because I live in a house with no cellar or colder rooms I just turned off the lighting and heating for two months and fed sparingly, she was almost all the time hidden and lost almost no weight), so it might be 3 months to today, but would she let the male to mate again if she was already gravid?
Right now she suddenly started very quickly crawling around the tank with her body heavy wobbling and she always lies down for some time and than doing the same crazy stuff again, I guess if she's not about to die she's about to give birth soon....
I hope that everything will be ok. :(

[kibakiba]

That sounds like a gravid garter. Mama acted like that too.

[GarterCZ]

Luckily, she was probably just nervous and she will deliver the litter on the right time.
Still refusing to eat though, is it really normal? It's the day 36. of her gravidity today.
Here's a picture of the pair, female is the bigger one :D
Sorry for the mess on the glass and the background but I want to disturb her as little as possible.

[guidofatherof5]

You've probably got at least 30 days to go before she delivers.
Best of luck with this breeding. I would love to see some baby ribbons.

[GarterCZ]

So it's normal that she will fast from 10 days ago untill the birth?
It worries me a bit, because she used to be so hungry before...
Thank you very much ;)

[guidofatherof5]

I would say fasting until birth would be not regular.
She may just be taking a break from eating.
They are all different.

[ConcinusMan]

Usually gravid females tend to go off feed when they are about to give birth.

I agree. That has always happened with my snakes. About 10-14 days before giving birth, they stop eating. Perfectly normal. Now, usually within a day or three after having them, she'll start eating with a vengence. As long as she is fat and gravid, don't worry about the lack of interest in food. If she's deflated and doesn't eat within a week after giving birth, then I start to get concerned because if they don't bounce back quickly, chances increase that they won't bounce back at all.

I wouldn't worry. She'll probably wait until they're born and then start pigging out again.

[GarterCZ]

Today, the female shedded again and right after the shed, she started to eat again, that calmed me down a bit.
It was 16 days since the last shed, is this normal?

Thx guys

[guidofatherof5]

Might be for her at this time in her life.

[EasternGirl]

Cee Cee stopped eating about a week or two before she started giving birth. She did this both times she was gravid.

[Invisible Snake]

Hey GarterCZ I hate to be a bother but could you post a couple of recent pics of her to see if she has gain anymore visible weight? Thanks.

[GarterCZ]

You're no bother, I forgot to do that, thx for reminding me.
The first picture is from july 2011 and the second one was taken on april 2012(so after the mating already)
I think she gained some weight, especially in the lower part of her body.
I'll take a new picture of her tomorrow.

[guidofatherof5]

Sweet ribbon. Awesome.

[EasternGirl]

She definitely looks like she could be gravid to me. Is it just me or does her face and throat look a little swollen in that second pic?

[GarterCZ]

She doesn't look like this now, maybe it has something to do with eating?

[EasternGirl]

I doubt it unless she was in the middle of swallowing. I just asked because a swollen area under the mouth and near the top of the throat can be a sign of a respiratory infection. If she doesn't look like that now and you haven't heard any wheezing or seen discharge or bubbles coming from her mouth or nose, and she hasn't displayed open mouth breathing...or anything like that...then I wouldn't worry.

[ConcinusMan]

Cee Cee stopped eating about a week or two before she started giving birth. She did this both times she was gravid.

mine have always done that too.


She definitely looks like she could be gravid to me.

i concur

[Invisible Snake]

I agree, she looks like she is gravid

[GarterCZ]

Two pics from today's morning, she seems to be satisfied and returned to her regular feeding schedule after the shed.
I hope she's gravid :o

[guidofatherof5]

I'll say it again. Sweet ribbon.

[EasternGirl]

I'd say the chances are likely. You could get a digital postal scale and start keeping track of her weight increase if you want...that might help to give you an idea of whether or not she is in fact gravid. Steve could help you with that...he helped me to pick out a scale and taught me how to weigh Cee Cee when I first thought that she was gravid. Greg posted a nice chart somewhere on the forum that gives an idea of typical weight gain in a gravid female...does anyone know where that chart is? I would say...start preparing for babies in about 60-90 days! I first suspected Cee Cee was gravid in January...and she just delivered a week ago.

[GarterCZ]

I'm afraid that putting her on some kind of a scale is not possible :( She is extremely nervous and every time I put my hand in the tank without a bowl of food, she starts crawling around trying to hide like crazy, and once out of the tank she's trying to escape, stinks, poops, hiss and sometimes bites furiously...She was like that since the day I bought her...I don't want to stress her any more as necessary. The interesting thing is, that when I open the tank for feeding she's nice and calm and just goes for the food even before I put the bowl on the ground.
The male is perfectly opposite...he is one curious snake and when I do anything in the tank, he follows the hand sniffing and flipping tongue, even let me touch him a bit, maybe in hope for something to eat :D
Unlike the female :(
Today it's day 42. after the mating, I'm expecting babies in a month or so, but I've already prepared a tank for them :D

[guidofatherof5]

Best to be prepared.

[GarterCZ]

Some actual info:

Today is the day 47 of gravidity, the female keeps eating more and more(today she was looking for food 3 days from last feeding! The male showed no interest in food at all, but the female ate 4 10cm fishes when I offered her. She's also gaining more and more weight every day.
I guess the litter is on it's way :)

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds good. Ready the hot water and clean blankets.:D

[reptileparadise]

Looking promising!

[GarterCZ]

Some fresh info: the female shedded 6/19 and refuses food since 5/26, I'm expecting the litter every other day now. I'm a little worried about that I'm going abroad on wednesday and I'm coming back on 7/14, wouldn't it be a problem for the babies to survive the week without any food?
Thx

[guidofatherof5]

Just make sure they have access to plenty of water. Dehydration would be a major concern.
Maybe put a damp hide box in so the babies can go in.

[GarterCZ]

So it came out today, I found a litter of 4 live and 8 dead babies in the tank today in the morning.
Anybody got an idea why there were so much dead and so few live ones?
Anyway, I'm happy that at least the 4 are healthy, I waited so long and worried so much for them.
Thank you guys for advice very much, I appreciate that.

[Invisible Snake]

Hey congrats on the live babies and sorry for the ones that didn't make it. I don't have much experience with garter births, but could you provide a little info on the parents.. such as, How old were the parents? Was this their first litter? And were the parents captive bred or wild caught?

[guidofatherof5]

Looks like a bunch of under developed babies. Way to much of the yoke sack is still there.
As to why this happened who really knows. Temps, stress, genetics, age of the snake, etc. are just a few of the possible causes.


Congrats on the ones that made it.

[EasternGirl]

As I have told many others...keep watching...it took my female several days to have live babies and several weeks after that to pass all of the stillborns. More could be coming for you. Like others said...it's hard to tell why they have stillborns...it's happened with my female eastern twice. Many members report stillborns along with live young with gravid females. Congrats on the live ones and so sorry about the stillborns.

Edit: looking at the pics, as Steve said...because of the yolk sac being there...it looks like they were underdeveloped. She may have delivered early for some reason. Who knows why this happens. It happens with women all the time. My son came 4 weeks early...but no one knows why...nature has it's own timetable I guess.

[ProXimuS]

Congratulations on the live ones:D The forum needed more ribbons!