New with a few questions

[PhillyDude]

Hi there... I'm PhillyDude, from Philly, dude.

Caught an 18" garter down on the Eastern Shore of MD two weeks ago, my first snake. Brought it home and set it up in a new 10gal tank. Used a mix of pine chips and fir bark from the pet store as a base material, added an undertank heat mat (half the tank) and a lid with a red 15w T-10 heat lamp in an old aquarium hood (temp on the "warm" side of the tank is 79-80), plus a big piece of wood (also from the pet shop) which had a nice little "cave" for him to hide in. He seemed pretty happy, and spent a fair amount of time out in the tank during the first week, exploring his environment while I watched him.

I let him get settled for four days, then put three feeder guppies in his water bowl and a night crawler cut into four pieces into the tank. Within fifteen minutes, he had polished off the worm and one of the guppies. Went away for the weekend and when I got back he had taken another of the guppies. I had collected several flat rocks while I was in MD to build him another "cave," so on Monday I moved him out of the tank and into a plastic carry box so I could set up the new structure. This seemed to agitate him (I put the box in the tank and let him crawl in... I have not handled the snake at all and don't intend to), and after I reset the tank (moving the log to the "cool" side of the tank) and returned him to the environment, he immediately went under the rock structure and has pretty much camped out there (out of sight) since then.

I did offer him another worm on Monday after all the disruption, and he ate that within a few hours (I did not see him do it) and on Tuesday he took the last guppy at some point while I was not home, so he is eating. Last night I refilled the water bowl with three more guppies and put in another worm. He did come out while I was watching (took him about fifteen minutes to build up the courage) and took one piece of the nightcrawler, but then went back to his rock cave. I miss the snake that was more "visible" and active, and I'm hoping that part of his personality returns...

1) Is it OK to keep the fish available all the time, so he can feed whenever he is hungry?
2) Is it normal that he spends so much of his time in "hiding?" Did I traumatize him somehow? Or does he just like the rock that much (it is over the heat mat and under the lamp, so I bet it's nice and warm in there)?
3) Any feedback on all of this (tank layout and design, food and feeding schedule, etc)?

Looking forward to learning from you all!

[Stefan-A]

Welcome aboard.

[guidofatherof5]

Welcome.
A great place to start would be the care sheet.
Please checkout the section on substrate.
Garter Snake Forum - Garter Caresheet (http://www.thamnophis.com/index.php?page=caresheet)
Looks like you have a couple garters in your area Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis -Eastern Garter Snake and Thamnophis sauritus sauritus - Eastern Ribbon Snake.
Are you certain you have a Garter?
If you can post a couple good photo we can help you I.D. the snake.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//744/medium/welcome.jpg

[Didymus20X6]

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachments/welcome-lounge/4500d1332817250-just-saying-hi-t9i0px.jpg

[chris-uk]

Welcome aboard.

Pine isn't a good substrate for garters, take a look at the caresheet Steve linked to for more info on substrates.
That he's hiding out isn't unusual for a garter that is still settling in. Some species are more sensitive to change than others. Also, be aware that when they are preparing to shed they will usually hide more, the most obvious way to spot this is if the eyes cloud over and go grey for a day or two.

Some photos of the tank and the snake would help if you want feedback on the setup.

[mikem]

Welcome to the forum! Share some photos if you can! I'd get him off the pine as soon as possible and use newspaper or paper towels. At least until you find something better for him. Good luck!

[EasternGirl]

Chris...I thought the same about pine...but all of the reptibarks are made with pine as it turns out. I know a lot of members use reptibark...so I think it must be okay to use, right?

Phillydude...garters love to hide..and to burrow. He is going to like going in his hiding spots. He will hide more initially until he gets used to his environment and being in captivity. It is not a good idea to have food available all of the time because garters won't necessarily stop eating when they should. Your best bet is to feed him a varied diet like suggested on the caresheet and to feed him every 5 days or so..until you see him get a little bulge in his stomach from eating...and then stop. Can I ask why you aren't planning on handling him?

[Selkielass]

Hello and welcome!
Sounds like a pretty good set up- aside from the before mentioned pine.
Be sure any rocks are secured well enough, or are light enough not to cause injury if the snake shifts them- garters are surprisingly strong!
Hiding a lot is not unusual. Some garters relax as they become accustomed to people and will ignore observers- some always panic whenever a person comes near. I've had good luck getting mine to relax by handling them briefly before each feeding- most soon come to associate my smell and sounds with food arriving, and many start begging for food when they hear me.

Nothing wrong with keeping a few guppies in the water dish so long as it doesn't interfere with regular changes of fresh water.

[PhillyDude]

Thanks all... turns out that he was indeed ready to shed, which he did over the weekend, and he's been out a little more since then.

Will post some pics of the set-up and the snake shortly... need to charge the batteries on my camera.

[Didymus20X6]

I realize you probably get tired of this joke, but someone had to post it.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Hellivision/fresh_prince_of_belair.jpg

[PhillyDude]

No problem.

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/carlton_dance.gif (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=1350)

[guidofatherof5]

I realize you probably get tired of this joke, but someone had to post it.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Hellivision/fresh_prince_of_belair.jpg


No problem.

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/carlton_dance.gif (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=1350)

This is already out of hand.:D

[mikem]

I'm not even going to tell you how long it took me to understand this :rolleyes:

[Light of Dae]

Chris...I thought the same about pine...but all of the reptibarks are made with pine as it turns out. I know a lot of members use reptibark...so I think it must be okay to use, right?

You are right about it being used to create ReptiBark but just pine shavings are bad. Next time your in a pet store smell pine shavings versus ReptiBark. Pine smells good... Snakes don't think so though. It can cause respiratory issues . When pine is used to make ReptiBark it get severely processed n washed n bleached n colored n compressed. All the manufacturing it goes through eliminates the smell completely. This is why pine and cedar shavings are never advertised as reptile bedding but aspen is.

[EasternGirl]

Cool...thanks, Dae. I kept sticking my head in Cee Cee's tank trying to see if I could smell anything from the bark. I didn't notice anything...and like I said, she doesn't seem to be having any breathing issues with it...and she has respiratory issues, as you know. Thanks for the info. :)

[PhillyDude]

here are a couple pictures of Bob the Snake...48244825

[Invisible Snake]

Thanks for the pics, he looks great :)

[EasternGirl]

Wow...he looks so much like my Cee Cee. Beautiful snake! If I can make a suggestion, when you feed Bob, put paper towels down over the substrate and then put his food dish down on the paper towels. Try to cover as much of the substrate as you can. That way if he drags the food off of his dish, he won't get substrate on the food and ingest it. Ingesting substrate can cause serious problems for a garter...it can cause stomach obstructions which can be fatal.

[katach]

Bob is a great looking snake!

[nitrogen15]

That's a dapper garter. Do you mean you don't want to handle him ever? You're probably trying to respect his space by not handling him, but a tame garter is a lot easier to care for or take to the vet if there are problems.

[PhillyDude]

Thanks!

1) I can definitely do the paper towel under the food thing... he's a pretty "clean" eater but it can't hurt.

2) In the wild, how do they deal with dirt/debris that they might ingest while picking up food off the ground?

3) So is he a garter or a ribbon?

4) I'd prefer not to handle him, and to be honest, I'm not really sure how to even start to "tame" him... never had a snake before.

[Invisible Snake]

3) So is he a garter or a ribbon?


He is definitely a garter snake, to me it looks like a checkered garter snake, but I'm not 100% sure.

[chris-uk]

Thanks!
1) I can definitely do the paper towel under the food thing... he's a pretty "clean" eater but it can't hurt.
2) In the wild, how do they deal with dirt/debris that they might ingest while picking up food off the ground?

They would injest the debris. Although they do have a technique where they spit out bits of debris if they feel it in their mouth. I don't know how to describe how they do it, but it's obviously better to prevent the substrate getting in the mouth.



3) So is he a garter or a ribbon?

4) I'd prefer not to handle him, and to be honest, I'm not really sure how to even start to "tame" him... never had a snake before.

Looks like a garter to me. I'm not sure it's a marcianus, the head and colour seem a bit wrong, so I'm going to suggest an Eastern and let Marnie (and anyone else) agree/disagree.

Most garters are tame already. Some people like to handle their snakes, others prefer to just watch, it's up to you what you do but the "taming" process is simply a matter of getting them accustomed to having you around until they are comfortable to sit in your hand.

[PhillyDude]

Some people like to handle their snakes, others prefer to just watch, it's up to you what you do but the "taming" process is simply a matter of getting them accustomed to having you around until they are comfortable to sit in your hand.

He's already a bit skittish (as I mentioned before) so maybe somewhere down the line as we get more comfortable with each other. Thanks!

[Didymus20X6]

I've had a couple I never could quite "tame". Scarlett, for example, always was extremely skittish and hostile, and loved to escape at every opportunity. Of all the snakes I've kept, only Little Dude ever became what I would call "tame". Of course, that's a grand total of 6 so far.

[EasternGirl]

That's an eastern garter...T.s.sirtalis...no doubt in my mind on this one. Looks like it could be Cee Cee's twin. And if you are in Philly, that is the species of garter that would be local to your area...you are 45 minutes north of me. Don't be offended if I ask you this, but are you afraid of handling him because you aren't used to snakes? It is a common fear. Garter snakes are not usually aggressive snakes. They usually don't bite...although they will sometimes. Easterns can be very skiddish...and wild caught snakes will be more skiddish than captive bred ones, but handling him and getting him used to you will help him to learn to trust you and become less skiddish. Cee Cee, my more fiesty eastern...at the most, false strikes at me....this is something garters often do. They will strike at you and look like they are going to bite you, but they don't actually open their mouths...they just bump you with their nose. You can begin by putting your hand in the tank and letting him just get used to your hand being in there. Then, let him come over to your hand and smell it...crawl on it if he will. Then you can try petting him. Do this all in little steps...a few days at a time...take it very slow. You will need to be able to handle him at some point...it's just a fact. If he does bite you at some point...it won't be that bad...my chihuahua bites worse than my snakes. :D Oh, and in the wild they do manage to get dirt off the food...but they don't have substrate to deal with either. Also, snakes die a lot in the wild from problems that we can avoid when we have them in captivity.

[PhillyDude]

That's an eastern garter...T.s.sirtalis...no doubt in my mind on this one. Looks like it could be Cee Cee's twin. And if you are in Philly, that is the species of garter that would be local to your area...you are 45 minutes north of me.

Actually, I caught him on the Eastern Shore in MD (Rock Hall) so definitely in your area.


Don't be offended if I ask you this, but are you afraid of handling him because you aren't used to snakes? It is a common fear. Garter snakes are not usually aggressive snakes. They usually don't bite...although they will sometimes. Easterns can be very skiddish...and wild caught snakes will be more skiddish than captive bred ones, but handling him and getting him used to you will help him to learn to trust you and become less skiddish. Cee Cee, my more fiesty eastern...at the most, false strikes at me....this is something garters often do. They will strike at you and look like they are going to bite you, but they don't actually open their mouths...they just bump you with their nose. You can begin by putting your hand in the tank and letting him just get used to your hand being in there. Then, let him come over to your hand and smell it...crawl on it if he will. Then you can try petting him. Do this all in little steps...a few days at a time...take it very slow. You will need to be able to handle him at some point...it's just a fact. If he does bite you at some point...it won't be that bad...my chihuahua bites worse than my snakes. :D

Yeah, that's definitely part of it... just not used to havng a snake around the house. When I stick my hand in the tank to change his water, he quickly retreats to his hiding spot. Even making eye contact when he is sticking his head out will cause him to pull it right back. As I said, we're still "new" to each other at this point. Time will tell...

[EasternGirl]

Sounds just like my skiddish easterns. He will get more trusting over time...but even after having mine for a year, my female is still very skiddish. I doubt he will act aggressive toward you though. Even when Cee Cee is trying to be tough, she is only being defensive because she is scared...and it never amounts to much. She bit me once because she thought I was someone else... and she barely broke the skin.

[PhillyDude]

Maybe he would react better to someone with more experience at first.

[guidofatherof5]

Maybe he would react better to someone with more experience at first.

It's a learning process for both of you.
Once your snake trusts you things will be different.

Snakes learn to trust on an individual basis. My snakes trust me more then the others in the family.
Strangers are offered little trust as they haven't earned it.