Understanding breeding norms

[EasternGirl]

Most of us know by now that crossbreeding is shunned by the garter community. I am not a breeder...but I like to learn everything I can about the hobby. I'm still a little confused as to what is considered crossbreeding. I thought you had to breed within the same species...but after speaking to another member tonight...I was told you have to breed within the same subspecies as well. Can someone please explain how it all works?

[katach]

Pure bred only. Easterns with easterns, pugets with pugets, nw with nw, and so on.

[Didymus20X6]

I'm not certain of the details, and there are some handlers who would disagree. But from what I gather, it's because each particular subspecies has particular traits that help that species survive. Cross-breeding has the potential to weaken some of these traits, and worse, can end up introducing undesired traits. This might not be detrimental to individual specimens, but if introduced to a breeding population, could end up producing disastrous results.

Within the pet trade, cross-breeds are not as desirable as pure-breeds, mostly because those who breed them want to know exactly what kinds of traits they can expect from their breeding. Hybrids make that more difficult to assess.

Now, this is only what I've managed to gather from conversations of others. Others on this forum may be better equipped to explain than I am at this time.

[kibakiba]

Mixed species tend to be "ugly", they don't tend to look like their parents, or having just a couple traits. A marci and a concinnus (I think it was a marci and concinnus?) got mixed and they just looked like a brown snake. Or, one could look just like one of the parents.. and you can ruin a whole collection thinking "oh, I have an infernalis and it's high red, I'll breed it with this other high red infernalis I have!" and it turns out being a cross, and it's a few years of wasted time.

[Didymus20X6]

And it's not just about aesthetics. It's about the health and welfare of the animals in question.

[kibakiba]

Yeah, My mind is elseware today so most of my posts are my unfinished thoughts.

[guidofatherof5]

I hope this helps.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Species_breeding.jpg

[mb90078]

And it's not just about aesthetics. It's about the health and welfare of the animals in question.

What is the reasoning behind that? In general, genetic diversity actually leads to healthier animals.

[Didymus20X6]

Again, there are those who might be better able to explain it than I am, but here is what I've gathered from previous conversations:

With different subspecies, there are enough distinctions between genetic traits to differentiate them as different animals. These distinct traits enable the different animals to survive in their native environs. However, if you cross-breed different subspecies, the resulting specimens will not have those differing traits as strongly prevalent, which, under the right circumstances, might make them less capable of surviving. It might also introduce new traits that might bring long-term harm to a breeding population.

And keep in mind, we're not talking about animals of a single type, like dogs (all of which belong to canus lupus familiaris), but of different types, with enough genetic distinction that they are not classified the same.

[kibakiba]

It doesn't happen in the wild, so why should people cross them like that? Diversity doesn't matter if you are crossing the species that do not naturally cross in the wild. What is the point in crossing them anyways? There are 70 some odd species of garter snake, is that not enough?

[Invisible Snake]

Hey could someone please post some pics of some cross-bred garter snakes.. thanks.

[BUSHSNAKE]

heres a concinnus x parietalis

[mb90078]

It doesn't happen in the wild, so why should people cross them like that? Diversity doesn't matter if you are crossing the species that do not naturally cross in the wild. What is the point in crossing them anyways? There are 70 some odd species of garter snake, is that not enough?

There is documented evidence that certain subspecies do cross in the wild in some areas.

[kimbosaur]

That's what I thought too, but it doesn't really make a difference.

If cross-breeding was acceptable, than we would basically be reversing the evolution process. Species have come to adapt to their environments through natural selection which is why they look the way they look and behave the way they behave. What would be the point of reversing all of that?

It's like, what if everybody just mixed up all the breeds of dog? We would just end up back at square one with a wild-type mutt looking animal. Not entirely the same thing, but you get the idea.

[guidofatherof5]

Agreed, but it has never produced anything special.
The knockout snakes are produced within their own species and subspecies.
In my opinion.

[kimbosaur]

heres a concinnus x parietalis

It looks like it's having an identity crisis.

[mb90078]

Again, I'm not exactly advocating the practice of cross-breeding in private collections. I'm just trying to correct common misconceptions.

(I do think some people go too far in demonizing it, but that's a different topic for a different time.)

[EasternGirl]

Thanks for all the feedback...I have a good understanding of breeding norms now and am enjoying the discussion on why we do not crossbreed...keep it going...this is very interesting!

[BUSHSNAKE]

heres a concinnus x parietalis
i was highly critized for having this animal by, at the time, a "friend"...im happy to say im not friends with that person anymore

[Eight]

From my understanding of snakes in general (not just garters) it happened in the wild when the ranges of two species overlap. If they are different sub species they are called intergrades where as different species are hybrids, although it gets more complicated than that. I always assumed it was shunned due to people wanting to keep the scientific species clear and pure in the pet trade, but Creamsicle cornsnakes are widely accepted considering they are a hybrid/intergrade. And as to keeping them healthy, that is completely wrong. As someone else stated that genetically diverse animals are generally more healthy. Just look at some of the royal morphs that have been inbred to hell for the sake of a colour mutation. I could never support that but also wouldn't intentionally cross any species of reptile. Some species of Tarantula are completely messed up and very confused due to breeding in the pet trade, especially the Avicularia species. But half of that is due to people wild collecting them and selling them under an incorrect scientific name.

[BUSHSNAKE]

as far as snakes go many morphs have been borrowed from another species thru cross breeding...many of the brook king morphs, albino speckled kings, albino greybands and so on are all thought to have borrowed a gene from another species cuz nobody has heard of a whitesided brooks or albino speckled king come from the wild. And the whole Avicularia situation...they are so variable which makes identification impoosible but ive never seen hybrid avics in the hobby.

[EasternGirl]

Well from what I understand, crossbreeding is accepted in the breeding of other kinds of snakes...right? They crossbreed pythons and boas don't they?

[Didymus20X6]

Do they? Boas and pythons are not closely related at all; I didn't think it was even possible to cross-breed them, as they are genetically too dissimilar.

[EasternGirl]

No...I mean within pythons and within boas...not crossbreeding pythons to boas. I mean I think that they crossbreed within species of pythons and within species of boas.

[Eight]

Do they? Boas and pythons are not closely related at all; I didn't think it was even possible to cross-breed them, as they are genetically too dissimilar.

its been recently thought that it could be possible after two different species of sand boa (one live bearing and one egg laying) managed to breed and give birth to live offspring. This was a complete mistake and was never intended. The theory hasn't been tested yet. I know that some species have a completely different genetic code though, so its still doubtful in my mind as to if its possible. They have crossed different species of Python though, such as blood and royal Pythons if that's what you are referring to?

[Eight]

as far as snakes go many morphs have been borrowed from another species thru cross breeding...many of the brook king morphs, albino speckled kings, albino greybands and so on are all thought to have borrowed a gene from another species cuz nobody has heard of a whitesided brooks or albino speckled king come from the wild. And the whole Avicularia situation...they are so variable which makes identification impoosible but ive never seen hybrid avics in the hobby.

that's kind of what I was getting at. Species of Avicularia such as Avicularia versicolor are visually different and do not need to be put under a microscope for identification. Avicularia avicularia how ever are just gathered from the wild and as so many different localities look nearly identical they are simply labeled up pink toe and sold in a pet shop which wouldn't be able to tell the difference even if the Tarantula could tell them. As a result many are then bred together and the offspring are sold on as A.avicularia and not as possible hybrids. I've heard of it in Brachypelma too.

[EasternGirl]

Yes...from what I understand...they don't follow the same strict norms that we follow with pythons in terms of not crossbreeding species...they crossbreed in order to get some of the morphs that they have, right?

[Eight]

Yes...from what I understand...they don't follow the same strict norms that we follow with pythons in terms of not crossbreeding species...they crossbreed in order to get some of the morphs that they have, right?
sometimes from what I understand. Although cross breeding, even to get a morph, still produces a hybrid. I'm not a morph fan to be honest, and I don't agree with it. I prefer my snakes as nature intended.

[guidofatherof5]

I am a purest and don't want any intentional crossing of the species/subspecies. Nature allows for it in overlapping ranges but to intentionally place two snake together from very different ranges is wrong.
This is just my opinion. No disrespect intended toward anyone.

[Invisible Snake]

I am not 100% against controlled cross breeding, you never know you might come up with a new kind of snake

[guidofatherof5]

I am not 100% against controlled cross breeding, you never know you might come up with a new kind of snake

Don't care. What we have is more then sufficient for me and doesn't muddy the water.;)

[kibakiba]

I'm with Steve. We already have so many species and absolutely beautiful morphs, you don't need to cross them. It'd be stupid.

[BUSHSNAKE]

that's kind of what I was getting at. Species of Avicularia such as Avicularia versicolor are visually different and do not need to be put under a microscope for identification. Avicularia avicularia how ever are just gathered from the wild and as so many different localities look nearly identical they are simply labeled up pink toe and sold in a pet shop which wouldn't be able to tell the difference even if the Tarantula could tell them. As a result many are then bred together and the offspring are sold on as A.avicularia and not as possible hybrids. I've heard of it in Brachypelma too.
cambridgei and irminia i think have also been mixed.

[InsanePirateDragon]

There's always a chance but its something that can happen, but besides getting beautilful colors can easily cause a genetic issue sometimes to come up with mudding up the waters to get something pretty.

In the Leo world there's this morph called the Engima, which is a gorgeous morph that is plagued with neurological problems that can range from minor to very severe to not showing any signs.

[gregmonsta]

I think the British situation should be enough to end this topic.

It doesn't matter how much you label hybrids, etc, some idiot further down the line will not pay attention and will sell someone the wrong snake and will potentially ruin someone's breeding project.

There are far too many hybrids in the hobby as it is and as much as others oooh and aaah over them - none looks 'better' than either parent species.

Chronically ugly hybrids are all over the place. The latest I saw was an everglades ratsnake x bullsnake. What a kick in the gut to Everglades ratsnakes - pretty much gone in the wild. At least a yellow x everglades is a natural intergrade.

The reason why I don't have corns or royals is because of this obsession with fashion in that industry sector. There are so many thamnophis species to choose from and I seriously fail to see what could be gained from any kind of cross-breeding other than snakes that more or less look like some other snakes of that genus. A pointless exercise that would do nothing but harm the hobby that we cherish.

[BUSHSNAKE]

for the record im a hardcore purist:) ...and i cant stand inbreeding:)

[Stefan-A]

It doesn't matter how much you label hybrids, etc, some idiot further down the line will not pay attention and will sell someone the wrong snake and will potentially ruin someone's breeding project.
When I sell snakes I've bred, I hand them over with a piece of paper that includes all the information I've been able to dig up regarding their lineage. At least one snake out of one clutch had passed to a second owner without the same information attached. The next time it changes owner, it's going be just an undetermined "garter snake".

The next person might house it with a parietalis or a radix and if they don't get eaten, there might be a clutch of hybrids, that will be sold to even less well informed people or pet stores as "garter snakes", who might eventually end up breeding the hybrids to something else, or to each other. And if I'm especially unlucky, I might one day come across a "garter snake" for sale, that I identify as just an "interesting looking vagrans", which actually happens to be a vagrans x radix x sirtalis x marcianus mix.

I've seen people here house Florida Blues and light radixes together, seemingly not realizing that they're completely different species. And some day, someone is going to cross them and put the offspring into circulation. It's just a matter of time.

[BUSHSNAKE]

When I sell snakes I've bred, I hand them over with a piece of paper that includes all the information I've been able to dig up regarding their lineage. At least one snake out of one clutch had passed to a second owner without the same information attached. The next time it changes owner, it's going be just an undetermined "garter snake".

The next person might house it with a parietalis or a radix and if they don't get eaten, there might be a clutch of hybrids, that will be sold to even less well informed people or pet stores as "garter snakes", who might eventually end up breeding the hybrids to something else, or to each other. And if I'm especially unlucky, I might one day come across a "garter snake" for sale, that I identify as just an "interesting looking vagrans", which actually happens to be a vagrans x radix x sirtalis x marcianus mix.

I've seen people here house Florida Blues and light radixes together, seemingly not realizing that they're completely different species. And some day, someone is going to cross them and put the offspring into circulation. It's just a matter of time.
This can all be avoided by knowing who or what your dealing with

[Stefan-A]

This can all be avoided by knowing who or what your dealing with
To an extent, not completely. And the point was that you don't necessarily know what you're dealing with or that the other person does.

[Eight]

I think the British situation should be enough to end this topic.

It doesn't matter how much you label hybrids, etc, some idiot further down the line will not pay attention and will sell someone the wrong snake and will potentially ruin someone's breeding project.

There are far too many hybrids in the hobby as it is and as much as others oooh and aaah over them - none looks 'better' than either parent species.

Chronically ugly hybrids are all over the place. The latest I saw was an everglades ratsnake x bullsnake. What a kick in the gut to Everglades ratsnakes - pretty much gone in the wild. At least a yellow x everglades is a natural intergrade.

The reason why I don't have corns or royals is because of this obsession with fashion in that industry sector. There are so many thamnophis species to choose from and I seriously fail to see what could be gained from any kind of cross-breeding other than snakes that more or less look like some other snakes of that genus. A pointless exercise that would do nothing but harm the hobby that we cherish.

The only royal I have owned or will ever keep are the normals. Admittedly my first snake was a snow cornsnake. I hate all the inbreeding to get the new colour 'flavour of the month'. I'm not too against the more basic colour mutations, like amelanistic or anerythristic, but I still think that nature provides the most stunning patterns and colours all by itself. I am a purist too though, and don't like the idea of hybrids. Intergrades/hybrids that occur naturally I'm fine with but taking two snakes from completely different geological areas to breed them is just wrong to me.

[BUSHSNAKE]

To an extent, not completely. And the point was that you don't necessarily know what you're dealing with or that the other person does.
that is true..the list of people that i trust is pretty short

[ssssnakeluvr]

I have a pair of hybrids....eastern x albino checkered. I will try to post pics later. they are pretty snakes. I don't purposely cross breed garters....these were from a friend that had an oops. they actually are pretty snakes. I keep mine separate to avoid such a happening.

[ssssnakeluvr]

here they are.....

male

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/ssssnakeluvr/DSCF5006.jpg

female

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/ssssnakeluvr/DSCF5010.jpg

[kibakiba]

Cute :)

[guidofatherof5]

Beautiful.

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...I have to say...I do find them rather lovely.

[mb90078]

Looks like we have to remove "they will necessiarly turn out ugly" from the list of reasons not to cross breed. There are plenty of more substantial reasons anyway, though.

[kibakiba]

Most seem to, though.

[d_virginiana]

Wow, those are actually pretty... Kind of remind me of the silver eastern morph.

I'm generally against cross breeding in pretty much any sort of reptile/amphibian. It's really common in pacman frogs, where a cranwelli x ornata gives you a much more desirable morph. It's so common that people talk about it almost like it's a species (Fantasy frog) :p This got people into thinking that whatever species of horned frog you mixed would end up giving you a good cross, and they ended up with a crossbreed called a 'green apple'. They are beautiful, but they almost all have severe spinal problems, and a lot of them don't even reach adulthood. The ones that do are usually sickly and terrible eaters. It really bothers me that people still try to create them knowing this. I'd hate to see something like that happen with garters.
Besides, no cross is as cool looking as the morphs you can get from just one species.

[gregmonsta]

Looks like we have to remove "they will necessiarly turn out ugly" from the list of reasons not to cross breed. There are plenty of more substantial reasons anyway, though.

These aren't ugly, but the traditional garter cuteness helps there :rolleyes: >


Wow, those are actually pretty... Kind of remind me of the silver eastern morph.


Also similar to other morphs of elegans etc ... nothing exactly new or special as far as colour or pattern go.