Several questions

[donna4909]

What is the safest, most efficient way of heating a rubbermaid bin?

Can I use a wooden water bowl? They look so much nicer than plain old ceramics.

Is there anywhere that I can buy humanely killed pinkie mice in small quantaties (say a dozen or so), without paying $30 for shipping? The local pet stores freeze them alive. :(

[adamanteus]

Hi Donna. Being in the UK, I have no idea what a rubbermaid bin is! So that's a question for our US members.:rolleyes:

On the question of wooden water bowls, I guess that would depend on what has been used to seal the wood. You wouldn't want anything that might contaminate the water. I would also guess that it would be more difficult to ensure that the bowl was totally clean, unless the wood is particularly smooth and well finished.

Personally I'm not convinced that freezing is an inhumane method of killing pink mice. That has been the subject of much debate previously.:)

[donna4909]

It's just a big clear plastic storage container.

I don't think the bowl has been sealed. It doesn't feel or look glossy, but it is very smooth. It's a serving bowl for human food, if that helps. Could it perhaps be bleached periodically to ensure cleanliness?

About the freezing... I won't even freeze fish to euthanize them. I've read about ice crystals forming in the blood and it seems painful to me.

I'm having a difficult time trying to figure out what I'll feed this snake I'm planning to get. Being a vegetarian, I have a lot of issues to work through on this one. I don't want to support the inhumane slaughterhouses by feeding meat meant for humans, and I can't figure out a way to get humanely killed fish and still keep it safe for the snake. So that pretty much leaves me with gased pinkies.

[adamanteus]

Perhaps just a thermostatically controlled heat mat placed under the bin would suffice.

I think untreated wood would soon fail, if it's full of water all the time. Even good hard wood won't stand up to permanent immersion for so long. I know glass and ceramic water bowls aren't the most natural looking thing, but they are extremely practical.

So, Donna, would you not be willing to buy whole fish such as trout? I guess they are farmed (at least sometimes) but I don't know under what circumstances they are kept and killed. I can understand that this would be something of a dilemma for a vegetarian. Please remember also, that it is important to vary your snake's diet as much as possible, so you're looking for more than one acceptable food source.

[donna4909]

Okay, I'll just get a ceramic bowl. :) Surely I can find a natural colored one somewhere.

I have no aversion to feeding earthworms, as I do not think they are capable of feeling pain. Would they not make a suitable second food source?

[adamanteus]

Earthworms are good as a secondary food, as you say, but not as a staple diet.

Read through this thread, Donna, see if it helps with your choice of pink mice.
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/breeding/309-freezing-mice-humane-question-well-lots.html?highlight=freezing+mice

By the way, I use lasagne dishes as water bowls....available in nice natural stone colours!

[donna4909]

Now I'm tempted to just get a rough green snake instead... even though crickets freak me out. :rolleyes:

[adamanteus]

Don't be put off, Donna!:) My guess is if the RSPCA say freezing pink mice is humane, then it is. They don't say things like that without knowing the facts.;)

[donna4909]

I know they're probably right... but it's still hard to believe that freezing is humane.

But considering it is, it almost tempts me to breed mice myself. At least that way I know the parents would be properly cared for, unlike the ones at the pet store. I could always ask my fiance to do the dirty work of stashing them in the freezer. But then what would I be? A vegetarian mouse killer? I dunno... I need to think this over some more.

[GarterGuy]

Hey Donna,
Ok questions as aksed 1) You can used the Flexwatt heat tape or some of the commercial sealed undertank heaters like Cobra heat mats or UltraTherm heat mats. There are several dealers online who sell these and you should be able to find them at petstores in you area as well. 2) I wouldn't really use wood and would go with ceramics instead. They're much more durable and easy to keep clean. Something you could consider are the molded resin dishes that are sold for reptiles, if you prefer a more natural look. 3)Ok this is a toughy....freezing pinks is actually just about as humane as gasing them. Yeh, I'm on that side of the debate. If you buy them from a reputable dealer, you can be assured that they're taking good care of the parents as well. Yeh, shipping sucks....but if you've got any local reptile shows around you can go and pick them up there (that's what I do). Passing on the mice, you can give your garter fish fillet as well. You can buy farm raised trout at just about any grocery store. Just cut it up and freeze it. It's ok to do this, trout doesn't have any thiaminase in it,so it won't harm your snake like some other frozen fish. Worms are a good "supplement" food, but they make for usually very messy stools and depending on the source, they can be a source of parasites for the snakes. I will end with one final thing.....snakes are predators, they kill and eat other living animals. If you really want to get a snake, this is something that you're going to need to deal with, if you want your snake to be happy and healthy. I'm also a animal rights person myself, so I can understand what you're going through, but I also know that snakes are what snakes are and my view point can't change that. Just wanted to throw that out there....see I also work with a reptile rescue and I see way too many snakes that are "discarded" because people got them and then couldn't deal with what was needed to care for them. I'm always thinking of the welfare of the animals first. So I hope this doesn't discourage you, but I just wanted to make sure you don't get a snake and then can't care for it. Good luck on your decision and feel free to ask as many questions as you need answered.
Roy

PS....Yeh, I think earthworms do feel pain, that's why I won't step on them when it rains.....it's just me.:D

[Stefan-A]

PS....Yeh, I think earthworms do feel pain, that's why I won't step on them when it rains.....it's just me.:D
I won't step on them either, but I will pick them up and feed them to my snakes, letting their stomach acids kill them more slowly. ;)

[drache]

aren't there reports out there from persons who had severe hypothermia and survived and said that there was no pain
I seem to have read something like that
pain is a weird thing too
many humans will go to great lengths to avoid even tiny amounts of it
on the other hand
I met a guy who had his leg ripped off in a motorcycle accident and felt no pain
he didn't even realize what had happened to him until he tried to get up
I did learn in school that sympathetic nervous system responses (fight or flight) include anesthetic endorphins, I just didn't realize how effective those are
just a few odd thoughts on the matter