Northern or Eastern - differences?

[kueluck]

What is the differences between Norther and Eastern Garters? Are there any? I've tried to search this out on the web but I can't seem to find any answers. There's a on-line place called Backwater Reptiles that has Northern hatchlings for sale and I'm debating on ordering one. I e-mailed to find out if the are w/c or c/b, I really don't want a w/c due to health issues. Any input would be appreciated.

[Natrix]

What is the differences between Norther and Eastern Garters? Are there any? I've tried to search this out on the web but I can't seem to find any answers. There's a on-line place called Backwater Reptiles that has Northern hatchlings for sale and I'm debating on ordering one. I e-mailed to find out if the are w/c or c/b, I really don't want a w/c due to health issues. Any input would be appreciated.
Just waiting for the Gregmonsta onslaught, He is going to love this one :D

[guidofatherof5]

There is no such animal as a Northern garter snake. That's just mislabeling by the sellers and in most situations they don't care if the animal is label wrong.
I've tried to get a hold of a number of sellers and they don't return phone messages.

[Natrix]

North western Garter Snake Thamnophis ordinoides
Eastern Garter Snake Thamnophis Sirtalis

[kibakiba]

I doubt it's a northwestern, it's probably a mislabling.

[Stefan-A]

Northern Garter Snakes do not exist.

[gregmonsta]

Northern Garter Snakes do not exist.

:rolleyes: ... that's the spirit!!! :D

P.S. - when are we getting a 'love' button?

[guidofatherof5]

:rolleyes: ... that's the spirit!!! :D

P.S. - when are we getting a 'love' button?

Not to be confused with the easy button but I guest in some situations they may be the same.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/easy_button.jpg

[EasternGirl]

Easterns are actually Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis. Northern garters fall in with the spotty garters, and golden garters...lol. (In other words, yeah...they don't exist).

[kueluck]

WOW, you guys are AWESOME..........well here's the web-site........have at em' Garter Snake for Sale (http://www.backwaterreptiles.com/garter-snakes/garter-snake-for-sale.html) ;) I e-mailed about w/c or c/b and he said that nobody breeds these and all are w/c. Guess I can take this site off my fav list. I've e-mail the guy in Raleigh, but he has not responded to my inquires. All I want is a male normal Eastern Garter, nothin' fancy. I've checked several sites but just nothing available. And if I DO come across one, my concern is also with shipping live creatures, it just can't be good for them.

[guidofatherof5]

If I'm not mistaken the photo on that website is a T.radix (Plains Garter snake).

The phone number on the website is a TX area code.
I also emailed the guy and offered my help to ID his snake if he wanted it.
I explained the error on his webpage but doubt anything will be done about it.

[ConcinusMan]

I've seen both T. radix (plains garter) and T. sirtalis parietalis (red sided garter snake) listed as "northern garter" before. In most cases they were WC from Canada. In one case they were actually adult T- "Iowa" albino plains garters.

I've contacted the ad posters before, once when it was plains garters being offered. They were like "oh, thanks for the information" but they just continue to place ads for "northern garter" snakes. I quit even bothering to contact the ad posters anymore. It doesn't do any good. :cool:

Most of them don't give a darn and seem to list any garter snake they offer as "northern garter" regardless of what species or subspecies it is. If it's anything but a checkered garter, they seem to just list it as "northern".

[Stefan-A]

Wait, I thought T. radix were Canadian Garter Snakes.

[kueluck]

I also emailed him to see if they check for parasites and he said “No, we don't preventatively treat animals for parasites--it can do more harm than good. A healthy reptile will pass any harmful parasites in a healthy environment fairly quickly.” Is this true or are they just trying to make a sale.

[guidofatherof5]

I'm not sure what he's trying to say with that statement.
Certainly cheaper to "let the animal take care of it".
A healthy snake can be infected with parasites its entire life if not treated.
A healthy snake makes a good host.
A healthy snake will be able to pass on many generations of parasites.

[kueluck]

I can't figure out how a “healthy” snake can have parasites. This is not a place I would deal with, he's just trying to make a buck is the way I see it. I guess it just goes to show you can't rush a good thing, meaning that I really want one, I just have to wait. I know there's a male Eastern out there somewhere for me calling out saying “pick me, pick me”.

[EasternGirl]

Well...I still don't know if Cee Cee is gravid or not...but if she is and she manages to have live babies this time...you are welcome to one of her babies if you haven't found an eastern by then.

[guidofatherof5]

I can't figure out how a “healthy” snake can have parasites. This is not a place I would deal with, he's just trying to make a buck is the way I see it. I guess it just goes to show you can't rush a good thing, meaning that I really want one, I just have to wait. I know there's a male Eastern out there somewhere for me calling out saying “pick me, pick me”.

Healthy or not parasites don't care.
Parasites simply need a host.

[kueluck]

That is so kind of you. I still have thereptile show the first weekend in May, it's just a matter of finding a c/b. I'll definitely take you up on the offer though.
Well...I still don't know if Cee Cee is gravid or not...but if she is and she manages to have live babies this time...you are welcome to one of her babies if you haven't found an eastern by then.

[Stefan-A]

I also emailed him to see if they check for parasites and he said “No, we don't preventatively treat animals for parasites--it can do more harm than good.
Not too long ago I heard someone state in a video on YT, that wildcaught specimens of a certain species kept dying on him, until he stopped treating them for parasites on arrival.



A healthy reptile will pass any harmful parasites in a healthy environment fairly quickly.” Is this true or are they just trying to make a sale.
They are trying to make a sale, but that doesn't mean what they say is necessarily untrue. That statement is untrue, though.

[Stefan-A]

I can't figure out how a “healthy” snake can have parasites.
Practically all animals have parasites. Most of the time, there are no symptoms and negligible harm done, at least until the immune system is compromised eg. due to stress or less than optimal conditions.

[ConcinusMan]

Exactly :cool: WC snakes get a bad reputation due to dealers like we're talking about. The stress of being captured and kept under less than ideal conditions is bad enough. Add a heavy parasite load and you get sickly snakes.

I always keep wild snakes for a while and make sure they're eating consistently and adapting to captive life. If I'm going to keep them long term, or sell them, I deworm them. The deworming process is in itself stressful and hard on them. It is poison afterall. A very small fraction won't get through it. Most do, and they're way better off afterward. They gain body mass, eat better, and are generally healthier afterwards.

There's a general misconception that somehow CB is better than WC. This comes from the fact that dealers like this just collect them up, overcrowd them, do not treat for parasites, and ship them right out. Fact is, if they're screened properly, treated for parasites, quarantined and observed for a period of time, WC snakes can be more hardy and even genetically superior to CB.

Captive bred does not magically make them healthier than WC or ensure that they don't have parasites. That's bull.

[kueluck]

My plan is to keep a snake for as long as it lives, hope for 15+ years. So I might as well go out and look for w/c, not an adult though, and just take it to the vet to have them checked out for internal parasites.

[EasternGirl]

15+ years is a long time for a garter...I don't think most captive garters even live that long. I think there have been some...but generally speaking, I think if a garter lives 8-10 years in captivity, that is a good long life. And with W/C garters you are looking at less years because the wild is hard on them...anyone else want to weigh in here?

[kueluck]

I'm just saying I'm not looking at short term commitment here. My plan is to keep a snake as long as I can, by keeping it healthy and happy. Also I won't take an adult from the wild or purchase an adult that is w/c. I personally think it's wrong to remove breeding stock for the wild, but now if I come across a baby in the wild!!! I'll consider it a give from above and bring it home. I will name him George and hug him, and pet him, and squeeze him, and pat him and rub him and caress him.

[guidofatherof5]

Let him get settled in before you do all that.
Keep in mind not all garter snake especially male don't take to being handled too much.

[kibakiba]

Snakey likes being held, or at least seems to... But he's been with me for 4 years and I held him daily and hand fed him a lot. But, if a snake doesn't seem to enjoy the attention it's usually best to put them down and leave them alone.

[kueluck]

Geezzzz people, I was quoting the classic looney tunes with the Yeti and Daffy. I guess every one had a Monday huh? Any way, my intention is to daily handle the snake, but not to extreme. Over handling isn't good for anything.

[guidofatherof5]

Geezzzz people, I was quoting the classic looney tunes with the Yeti and Daffy. I guess every one had a Monday huh? Any way, my intention is to daily handle the snake, but not to extreme. Over handling isn't good for anything.

Sorry about that. Must have missed that one.
I've lived a sheltered life.:D

[EasternGirl]

Sometimes we get a little too serious...lol.

[kibakiba]

I knew you were quoting it, but everyoe could use advice on how to handle their snakes! :p I also enjoy flaunting my loving little Snakey around.