ID Please ASAP?

[Natrix]

Can anyone give me a positive ID on This44224423 This is not mine but it is in a reptile rescue. I want to rehome it and I would like a positive ID. It looks like and Albino T Marcianus but not sure. Would like second opinions please ASAP. Thanks!;)

[chris-uk]

It looks like and Albino T Marcianus but not sure. Would like second opinions please ASAP. Thanks!;)

I think you're right, pics are a little fuzzy but it looks like an albino checkered to me.

[Natrix]

It's 12-15months old and I am told it is male. eating well on pinkies and has just shed when that pic was taken a couple of days ago.

[chris-uk]

Do you know what substrate it's on? Looks like it's either shiney or damp.

[Natrix]

Click on the pics Chris it looks to be on soft astroturf like they use in shop windows

[chris-uk]

You can see the shed in the second pic, if it's still there when you pick it up check the tail and eyecaps. If the substrate is damp it's worth checking for scale-rot, if you're up for rescuing it that won't matter, but good to look out for a potential vets bill if it needs treatment.

[EasternGirl]

Looks like an albino T. marcianus to me as well. Looks just like Hermes.

[Natrix]

It's in a reptile rescue atm They have had for around 3mths and it is now ready for rehoming. This guy seems to know what he's doing. I just need to finish the viv and hopefully arange to pick it up next week?

[mikem]

yep, t. marcianus.

[Natrix]

Just need a positive ID

[chris-uk]

It's in a reptile rescue atm They have had for around 3mths and it is now ready for rehoming. This guy seems to know what he's doing. I just need to finish the viv and hopefully arange to pick it up next week?

I'd say go for it. We have one that is about 9 months old. Lovely snake.

[EasternGirl]

Too bad you aren't in the states...would have been a perfect roomie for my Hermes. I would have taken the little guy in a minute!

[Natrix]

OK! Thanks Guys, Looks like I may have my first Garter for 15 years :)

[EasternGirl]

Oh yeah...Hermes is a doll. Very sweet.

[EasternGirl]

Awesome! And the fact that he is a rescue snake makes it even better...so great that you can give him a good home!

[Natrix]

Too bad you aren't in the states...would have been a perfect roomie for my Hermes. I would have taken the little guy in a minute!
If I lived in the states lass, I'd have snakes coming out of my ears by now. I forgot how much I liked them. I guess living on your own brings things back that seem to been lost in the passage of time and outside influences.;)

[Natrix]

The Guy at the rescue hasn't said I can have him yet?

[EasternGirl]

Do you have to fill out an application and go through an approval process? When I was looking for a dog, I looked at the rescues. It's very frustrating because they make it so difficult to get a dog through a rescue around here that I ended up going to a breeder instead...which is a shame because so many dogs need good homes. I understand rescues wanting to ensure that responsible people adopt the animals, but sometimes they go a little overboard with all of the requirements.

[Natrix]

Not sure, I have just sent the guy a message to find out what the rehome fee is and wether or not I can go and pick him up. They usually insist on delivering to make sure that you have the right set up. :rolleyes: It isn't like a dog pound. I thinks this guy operates on his own and the rehoming fee goes towards food bills and vet costs.

[mikem]

good luck rod. hope you get him! keep us updated.

[Natrix]

Thanks Mike, Will do

[EasternGirl]

Well it is good that they make sure people know what they are doing and have the right set up. And it sounds like the fees go to a good cause. Yes, good luck...hope you get the little guy. Let us know.

[gregmonsta]

Fingers crossed for you ;)

[Natrix]

Guy at the rescue says I can rehome this snake. £20 rehome fee + fuel cost ( They insist on delievring to make sure that the Vivarium is correct) :) Which is fare-enough, as all proceeds go back into the rescue and I know I will be paying over the odds. should be able to get him some time next week. Can't wait! :D Will update as soon as I get him/her?

[chris-uk]

Sounds good Rod. And for £20+fuel, a bargain, as our baby albino checkered cost us £42.50 last year.
Time to get that viv looking great. :)

[EasternGirl]

That's awesome! Congrats. Keep us posted!

[Selkielass]

Hooray!

[mikem]

awesome! glad to hear you're getting him :D

[Natrix]

Quick update. Just finished the Viv, Need a few finishing touches. W 80cm x D 40cm x H 41cm 44394440
Build costs: £25.48
Hifi unit £2.20
Door Runners £ 4.40
Glass Doors £8.75
Ventilated back £0.98
Angled Light fitting £1.25
Pro Rep - Red Spot £7.90
I am just in the process of monitoring the temps with an equivelent white bulb. This will serve as a quarantine Viv when I build the breeding stacks. What do you think?

[chris-uk]

You need a bulb guard. Other than that it looks like it will do the job, check for the slightest gaps that could be used as escape routes.

[EasternGirl]

Looks good...make sure he can't get his head into the holes in the backboard. I can't tell how big they are. Are you adding substrate, plants and a hide?

[Natrix]

You need a bulb guard. Other than that it looks like it will do the job, check for the slightest gaps that could be used as escape routes.
Thanks Chris, I know about the bulb guard, Need to find one that fits. There are no gaps. Just need to seal the edges of the base with silicone. Glass and runners are 4mm. Haven't decided on substrate yet. Going to get some artificial foliage Though. Then once the temps are right I'll contact the rescue for ma wee Snakey. Can't wait :D. I have made this design before so it's tried and tested. IF I can find a 25w bayonette bulb I shouldn't need a light guard? ;) I never had any probs with the snakes 15yrs back with unguarded spots :confused:

[Natrix]

Looks good...make sure he can't get his head into the holes in the backboard. I can't tell how big they are. Are you adding substrate, plants and a hide?
Hi Marnie, Holes in the back are about 4mm so there is no chance of the snake getting stuck. The Wood you see in the pick will double as a hide. Artficial foliage will be added. Substarte to be decided upon.;)

[EasternGirl]

Sounds good! Look forward to seeing it when it is all finished. Can't wait to see pics of the new snakie too!

[mikem]

looks good, rod! your garter should be a happy camper in there :cool:

[Natrix]

looks good, rod! your garter should be a happy camper in there :cool:
Thanks, Mike. ;)

[Natrix]

Right Guys 'n' Gals.... should be picking this little beauty up on friday all being well. is this a T. Marcianus? 4560 ( By the way, That isn't me) ;) This will be going in with the Albino at the top of this thread. :) I'm a happy boy!!

[guidofatherof5]

Nice looking snake.
Looks T.marcianus to me.

[mikem]

that's awesome rod! did you already receive the albino? the addiction has begun :D

[Natrix]

that's awesome rod! did you already receive the albino? the addiction has begun :D No! Mike, That is coming in a week or so. Will post pics when I get it. ;)

[chris-uk]

Good looking marcianus. I bet Thursday night will feel like Christmas Eve. :)

[Natrix]

Yeah it will, especially seeing as I am getting it for £0.00p Who's a lucky boy then. :D

[EasternGirl]

Sorry to be the voice of difference here...but that looks like it could be an eastern. Looks just like my easterns...remember the easterns around here have that checkering like T.marcianus. Do you have any more pics?

[guidofatherof5]

T.marcianus-Supralabials 8, lateral stripe confined to 3rd dorsal scale row on neck (rows 2 and 3 thereafter)

T.sirtalis- Supralabials usually 7, lateral stripe usually confined to dorsal scale row 2 and 3

Info. from: The Garter Snake- Ecology and Evolution by Ross, Ford and Seigel

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...I know..and Joe agrees with you guys...now I don't want his peachy albinos. Okay...I still want his peachy albinos. :D

[ConcinusMan]

Sorry to be the voice of difference here...but that looks like it could be an eastern. Looks just like my easterns...remember the easterns around here have that checkering like T.marcianus. Do you have any more pics?

Check out the black behind the head and black bar under and behind the eye. marcianus all the way.

[Natrix]

Sorry to be the voice of difference here...but that looks like it could be an eastern. Looks just like my easterns...remember the easterns around here have that checkering like T.marcianus. Do you have any more pics?
4576 This is the original Pic sent to me. This was taken approx 4-5 days ago.

[ConcinusMan]

Wait a second.. now it looks like a radix. I'm soooo confused :confused:

I was thinking something's not right. If it's a marcianus then the "checkers" should touch. They don't.:cool:

[chris-uk]

Fair point about the checkers touching Richard. There's some variation in the evenness of the checks on the marcianus I've seen, and generally they do touch more than they don't touch. Our Eskerina has a section where the checks are "looser" though, so is it possible that this is a marcianus with a completely "loose" checkerboard?

This could be a tough one to call before tomorrow when Rod posts up some closer and clearer pics.

[Natrix]

Wait a second.. now it looks like a radix. I'm soooo confused :confused:

I was thinking something's not right. If it's a marcianus then the "checkers" should touch. They don't.:cool:
That's why I asked for help with IDing it. ;) 'Tis confusing :D

[kibakiba]

Even with this last pic, I say checkered. It doesn't look like a radicx to me at all.

[Natrix]

Steve says it looks like T marcianus....... BUT will this throw confusion into the mix? We will have to wait and see. :D

[ConcinusMan]

That's why I asked for help with IDing it. ;) 'Tis confusing :D

Well that settles in then. It's a northern garter. :rolleyes:

[ConcinusMan]

That's why I asked for help with IDing it. 'Tis confusing :D

Well that settles in then. It's a northern garter. :rolleyes:

T. radix:

http://www.agamen.de/thams/fotos/radixW4.jpg

And now, the snake in question:

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachments/garter-snake-lounge/4576d1333609129-id-please-asap-garter.jpg

C'mon now... that's a radix. I knew better than to say "marcianus" when I saw that the spots weren't touching. :o

I've said it before, and I'll say it again... too much damn hybridizing going on over there in Europe. Seriously. Could be both. Could be radix and marcianus, or some eastern thrown in there. They just don't give a darn over there. If it's a garter, they'll breed 'em. They don't care if they're not the same species. marcianus X radix are well documented as two species known to readily interbreed in captivity.

I can tell you one thing... the day that I have such a hard time identifying garters for sale in the U.S. is the day I stop buying those captive bred garters. In fact, the only reason I've ever bought CB snakes is to get a few morphs as a "novelty" for my collection but even those morphs were easily identified by species and even subspecies. I'd much prefer a healthy WC specimen of unquestionable origin. :cool:

[ConcinusMan]

First post, the albino is a checkered garter. This last pic looks like a radix to me. The pic where the normal snake is wrapped around your hand is who-knows-what. Now you say you just want to throw them in together. Well, if they have babies, it's no wonder why there's so much confusion. :cool:

[Natrix]

I'd much prefer a healthy WC specimen of unquestionable origin. :cool: But we brits don't have luxury, we have no choice but to use CB specimens. The only thing we can do is buy from reputable breeders. :rolleyes: The fact is that this snake was too good to pass up. and Unless I can get a positive ID of it then it will remain as part of the 4' x 20" x 20" Display collection that I intend to have in the living room, ( but that is another project for a later thread). ;)

[Natrix]

First post, the albino is a checkered garter. This last pic looks like a radix to me. The pic where the normal snake is wrapped around your hand is who-knows-what. Now you say you just want to throw them in together. Well, if they have babies, it's no wonder why there's so much confusion. :cool:
Firstly, Both animals are meant to be male. So there is no chance of breeding. Secondly, that isn't me in the picture. I don't collect it until tomorrow. I have been told that it is a male T marcianus - Chequered Garter. It is I believe about 4yrs old but unsure. As I have just said in my previous post If I can't get a positive ID then it will not be going into my intended breeding program. The Albino however will be. ;)

[Natrix]

457745784579 The Three pics of the snake in question? 4580 And one that I have 'Borrowed' from the internet for comparison. :confused: Still confused.

[ConcinusMan]

I'd much prefer a healthy WC specimen of unquestionable origin. :cool: But we brits don't have luxury, we have no choice but to use CB specimens.

Yeah, I know. Quite the dilemma, but to confuse matters, you also get plenty of WC snakes imported but misidentified and/or misrepresented as CB.


Firstly, Both animals are meant to be male.

And both supposedly checkered garters. If you can't be sure of the species, how do you expect to be sure of the sexes?

I would say you don't have much of a choice but to take the breeders word for it on both matters. It's very difficult to tell from the few pictures posted here, from across the Atlantic Ocean. In some pics I'll swear it's a checkered, in others, a radix. My suggestion is to get the snake in hand and make all the comparisons you can and draw your own conclusion or post better pictures after you have it and then run it across us (the forum) again. I'm certain we can at least confirm the sex, if not sex and species, with better pictures. I'm very interested to see the underside of this normal colored snake. That's one more piece of the puzzle that we are missing.

[gregmonsta]

Looks marcianus to me. You do get some very nice olive coloured examples. In fact, I remember James' female, called Olive, being quite, well, olive.

I do know that there was a run of idiots crossing radix with marcianus a few years back. Even to the point where they were getting sold as 'Great plains x checkered garters' in shops. Sadly, unless you have the full history on the animal you will never know as hybrids sometimes don't show the traits of one parent species at all.

[Natrix]

Yeah, I know. Quite the dilemma, but to confuse matters, you also get plenty of WC snakes imported but misidentified and/or misrepresented as CB.



And both supposedly checkered garters. If you can't be sure of the species, how do you expect to be sure of the sexes?

I would say you don't have much of a choice but to take the breeders word for it on both matters. It's very difficult to tell from the few pictures posted here, from across the Atlantic Ocean. In some pics I'll swear it's a checkered, in others, a radix. My suggestion is to get the snake in hand and make all the comparisons you can and draw your own conclusion or post better pictures after you have it and then run it across us (the forum) again. I'm certain we can at least confirm the sex, if not sex and species, with better pictures. I'm very interested to see the underside of this normal colored snake. That's one more piece of the puzzle that we are missing.
I will do my very best to please and provide clearer pic. It may be difficult as I live on my own, but the again, us falconers are pretty good when it comes to doing things one handed! :D

[EasternGirl]

4589 4590 Okay...well then my easterns are marcianus or radixes! Lol...Because I am telling you it looks like an eastern...the checkering doesn't look checkered enough for a marcianus. It looks like the checkering on an eastern. Where is Dae? Can we get her to post a pic of her checkered?

[EasternGirl]

I guess the answer..or at least part of it will be in the supralabials like Steve said. Easterns have 7...and radixes and marcianus have 8 right? So...if the snake has 8...we know it isn't an eastern...but then we still don't know if it's marcianus or radix right? I say it's a chessboard garter. They have those in the U.K. right? Along with the goldens, pinks, and darks? :D

[Natrix]

I'd much prefer a healthy WC specimen of unquestionable origin. :cool: But we brits don't have luxury, we have no choice but to use CB specimens.
Yeah, I know. Quite the dilemma, but to confuse matters, you also get plenty of WC snakes imported but misidentified and/or misrepresented as CB. Spot on! ;)

[EasternGirl]

I am now convinced that all of the easterns in my yard have disappeared over the last couple of years because stores in the U.K. are coming over here and stealing them and taking them over there and selling them as northern garters. :D

[Natrix]

4589 4590 Okay...well then my easterns are marcianus or radixes! Lol...Because I am telling you it looks like an eastern...the checkering doesn't look checkered enough for a marcianus. It looks like the checkering on an eastern. Where is Dae? Can we get her to post a pic of her checkered? Trust you to confuse matters more......:rolleyes::D

[kibakiba]

The markings on the face take eastern out of the picture completely.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, I see a lot of difference. Doesn't look eastern to me at all. Not even a little bit.

[ConcinusMan]

hybrids sometimes don't show the traits of one parent species at all.

This is true, but radixes and marcianus' share a lot of similar traits and I've seen the results of crossing them on the web before. They really do just look like a blend of the two.

[Natrix]

As far as I am aware, the people that I am getting this snake from were told it was a Chequered -T marcianus, when they bought it. They have had it for around 5 years and have had it since it was approx. Six months old. Found this info out tonight. The reason for posting is when I first saw the photo (the one with the shed), it didn't look like the classic paterning of a marcianus. Because I have doubts and there are people on here with far more experience than I, I thought it best to ask for help with ID. I have no knowledge of origin? Just want to know what it is. Will try and get some better pics tomorrow for labial count and scale count. ;)

[kimbosaur]

This is true, but radixes and marcianus' share a lot of similar traits and I've seen the results of crossing them on the web before. They really do just look like a blend of the two.

It kind of looks like a marcianus face with a radix body to me?

[guidofatherof5]

T.marcianix:D T.radianus:D

[EasternGirl]

Yeah..I was going to say...let's just call it a northern checkered radix...it's a new subspecies...lol.

[EasternGirl]

Oh...and btw...I am having trouble seeing the face in the pics on my computer...but I'm looking back at the first pic and I think I see what you guys are saying about the face...the pattern on the face...yes, that does not look like an eastern at all. Easterns don't have that striping on the face.

[Natrix]

Ok! New Photos......... Here he is....... 4603460446054606 Will post more once he has settled in. The dorsal stripe is very clear and to me he looks like a radix..? Length 24" Approx. ;)

[Natrix]

Exploring his new home.........4611.....4612.....4613

[guidofatherof5]

Exploring his new home.........4611.....4612.....4613

I know it's a male but maybe you could name it Roxanne:D

[kimbosaur]

Hey, it looks a little less marcianus-ish now

[Natrix]

I know it's a male but maybe you could name it Roxanne:D :D:D

[EasternGirl]

Okay....Steve, please get out your pointer thingy...because I can't tell if the last scale I'm looking at counts as a supralabial or not...I can't tell if I'm counting 7 or 8...and his body still looks like an eastern to me. I am now saying that is an eastern marcianus....or an eastern radicianus....perhaps a checkered eastern radix? Rofl....maybe we should call it the T.s. rodianus...a new species of snake. Ha ha ha...


All joking aside...Rod, he is a lovely snake!

[mikem]

whatever he is, he looks happy exploring his new home :cool: congrats, rod!

[EasternGirl]

He does look really happy! He's really cute!

[Light of Dae]

I think it's a green phase Radix... I could be wrong... It probably is a crossbreed...

[Light of Dae]

This here is my obvious Checkered Garter (Pastel). He has very little lateral stripes but note the very slim dorsal stripe...
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachments/general-talk/4598d1333641198-my-snake-log-100_1436.jpg

Here is my Radix with a big bright dorsal stripe. He is young yet and his pattern is very minimal yet... (Freaking photos don't do him justice... He is SO green! ...grumble grumble not like you can tell from the pictures.. grumble...)
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachments/general-talk/4593d1333639492-my-snake-log-100_1474.jpg

[EasternGirl]

See what I mean about the marcianus? The checkers are very distinct and the dorsal stripe barely noticeable. In the easterns, the checkering is not as checkerboard looking and the dorsal stripe more distinct...there are usually two more stripes on the sides of easterns as well. The face, on your snake Rod, however, does look curiously like a marcianus.

[Natrix]

I'm coming over to Alberta to steal this....... http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachments/general-talk/4598d1333641198-my-snake-log-100_1436.jpg :D Very Nice.

[guidofatherof5]

I'm coming over to Alberta to steal this....... http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachments/general-talk/4598d1333641198-my-snake-log-100_1436.jpg :D Very Nice.

Long ways to go for a snake available in U.K land.;)

[Natrix]

Long ways to go for a snake available in U.K land.;) But not like that one....:D

[Light of Dae]

I'll sell him for a small fee of 1000bucks lol I've grown quite attached to my George. :)

[Natrix]

I'll sell him for a small fee of 1000bucks lol I've grown quite attached to my George. :) That's why I'm coming to steal him LOL :D
only kidding;)

[ConcinusMan]

I'm coming over to Alberta to steal this....... http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachments/general-talk/4598d1333641198-my-snake-log-100_1436.jpg :D Very Nice.

Looks just like the one I got from Shannon. Heck, for all I know, it is that one.

[Light of Dae]

Looks just like the one I got from Shannon. Heck, for all I know, it is that one.

Nope this is an Albertan Born n Raised fellow, Bred by Spanketyne down in Calgary, I drove 3hours to go get that little guy :) Then 3hours home with him peering at me from under the shavings almost the whole way.

[Natrix]

Settling in nicely. Ate a fuzzy last night. Here are some of him in a different light. The 'Wet' looking stuff in the foreground is clear silicone that is holding the leaf sprigs in place.463746384639 ;)

[guidofatherof5]

Looking good, Rod.
Eating already, nice.

[Natrix]

He last ate on Wednesday so I figured that he would be a little peckish. I found out that he had only been getting fed once a week? :rolleyes: He's a people snake.... Out watching whats going on all the time. :D

[chris-uk]

He's looking less marcianus to me in your pics Rod. Good looking snake whatever he is.

[Natrix]

He's looking less marcianus to me in your pics Rod. Good looking snake whatever he is.
Thanks, Chris. Thats because he isn't one. The snake god looked on me kindly on Wednesday when I found him on the internet. Has to be one of the best things that has happened in the last twelve months. Even more of a surprise to see what he was and what good condition he is in. ;)

[ConcinusMan]

Sweet looking northern garter you have there. :rolleyes:

[Natrix]

Sweet looking northern garter you have there. :rolleyes: The couple that I got him off were told that he was a Chequered T marcianus :rolleyes: and the people that they got him off when he was 6mths old were probabley told that he was a 'Northern' T northianus . :D

[ConcinusMan]

northianus? :cool:. But seriously, now that we have good clear pics, I'll have to agree. It is a marcianus. Quite a reduced checker pattern, but still a checkered. Very handsome snake. Nice color.

[Natrix]

OK! Identify these Both common and Latin names?
1)4642 ...........................................
2)4643.........................................
3) 4645.........................................

[ConcinusMan]

1) Checkered Garter Snake. Sometimes known as Marcy's garter snake, or Marcy's checkered garter snake. T. marcianus marcianus.

2) Plains Garter Snake. Sometimes known as Great Plains Garter Snake. T. radix. One of Don Belnap's photos I believe.

3) Questionable. plains garters and checkered garters often share similar appearance, depending on location. This snake has features that appear to be a blend of the two species. However, in certain locations, pure checkered garters can look like this. So can pure radixes. This snake could be one, the other, or have both in it, which wouldn't surprise me if it was CB in Europe. Plains X checkered are well documented hybrids in captivity. If this snake is wild caught, location data would be needed to confirm it's identity. Without that, as Joe said "It's a guessing game"

[kibakiba]

The markings under the eyes and the black blotch on the neck scream checkered. I would just assume it's a hybrid.

[ConcinusMan]

Can't just assume though. It could just be checkered. I mean, just as an example, if I had shown you some of the T.s. concinnus' I have found and gave no location data, you would have sworn they weren't concinnus'. The location information would make it impossible to assume they were anything but concinnus'. :cool:

[kibakiba]

Well I'm good at assuming and leaving it at that. If the snake is a pet is it that important? It's nice knowing the species but the snake won't die if it's not identified.

[EasternGirl]

What the heck is a northianus? Are they making up species now? That last one in the new pics looks like an eastern with a checkered face...so...I'll say another northianus? A T.s.marcianus? Good grief! I give up! I wave my white flag.

Btw...that is a lovely snake you have...that second pic of him is so adorable!

[EasternGirl]

Oh..okay...I get the northianus thing now...it was a joke...I'm tired. I wouldn't be surprised you see...if someone was told that in all seriousness! :D

[Stefan-A]

The couple that I got him off were told that he was a Chequered T marcianus :rolleyes: and the people that they got him off when he was 6mths old were probabley told that he was a 'Northern' T northianus . :D
Named after the famous herpetologist Oliver North? I suppose that would be T. northii.

T. septentrionalis or T. borealis should be okay, though.

[EasternGirl]

Alright...so I got to thinking last night after I got off of the forum. To combine a couple of discussions we have been having on here lately...looking at some of these garters we have been trying to ID lately and considering the fact that we have been struggling to ID some of them, and taking into account the fact that we have noticed traits from more than one species on some of them...which is why they have been so difficult to identify...is it too much of a leap to say that we could be dealing with crossbreeding here? I mean, if we know for a fact that some of these shops import W/C snakes and mislabel them...is it so hard to imagine they might be doing some crossbreeding as well?

[Natrix]

I know most people are leaning towards T marcianus or possible cross, but look closely at all 3 picks and there are only two snakes that are vurtually identical. The pattern on the second and third snakes are identical and nothing like the regular chequer board pattern of T marcianus in the first pic. Rather than just go off appearances has anyone compared scale counts yet? Taking into account, Pattern, position of lateral stripe, Supralabials etc... Some people are saying that the black marks on either side of the neck are so charictaristic of T marcianus and therefore must be a marcianus albeit a poor one. There are of course T radix with black marks in the same positions. I am sure that with the wealth of knowledge on here that this can finally be put to bed. There is no doubt in my mind that cross breeding has and probably does still go on, What people exactly intend to achieve with such practice is beyond me. As Greg has already pointed out in another post, With the vast natural variety that the Thamnophis Species offers this can only be detrimental to the hobby. As for the identity of the snake in question I myself am leaning 98% towards T radix. ;)

[EasternGirl]

Are you talking about counting supralabials in the three pics that you last posted? It's a bit difficult for me to count from those pics. I can get a count on the first pic...I am saying definitely 8 supralabials...definitely a checkered...a T.marcianus. I am having trouble counting from the position of the head in the second pic...but I think I am counting 7 supralabials...if I am, then I will say an eastern....T.s.sirtalis. I think I count 8 supralabials in the last pic...which rules out eastern...so I will say a radix...T.radix. Thinking about what you have said...about the face of the radix and how they can look like a marcianus...and looking at that last pic...if I am correct about that...then I will agree with you that your snake is most likely a T.radix.

[Natrix]

T marcianus
Supralabials 8
Infralabials 10
Lateral stripe confind to row 3 extending to row 2 near the tail
Characteristic black blotches either side of the head with a pale cresent at the corners of the mouth
Even check pattern charcterised by squares. Dorsal stripe usually thin.

T radix
Supralabials 7
InfraLabials 9
Lateral stripe rows 3 and 4
Supralabials sutures with black bars and/or wedges
Between the Lateral stripe and the Dorsal stripe are two rows of regular black blotches which may or may not be arranged in two neat rows.

My Snake
Supralabials 7
InfraLabials 9
Lateral stripe rows 3 and 4
Supralabials sutures with black bars and/or wedges
Between the Lateral stripe and the Dorsal stripe are two rows of regular black blotches

[guidofatherof5]

I'm going with T.radix
The final call becomes yours Rod. Your decision to breed must be your call.
If you have any doubts that it is not a true radix I hope you will not breed it.
From our Skype conversations it looked like this male is working his way into your heart.
Nothing wrong with that.;)

[EasternGirl]

Okay..wait..I am completely confused now. I thought Steve told me more than once that radixes have 8 supralabials.

[guidofatherof5]

Okay..wait..I am completely confused now. I thought Steve told me more than once that radixes have 8 supralabials.

Page 235

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/trad.jpg

[EasternGirl]

Okay...I got out the bible...I see that radixes can have 7 or 8 supralabials...that changes my IDing of snakes quite a bit now...

I agree Rod...that your snake appears to be a radix. He is a lovely snake.

Btw...I was reading a little about T.s.sirtalis...and since Cee Cee is having so much scale spread lately...I can totally see the red in between her scales that is mentioned occurring in easterns sometimes. It is very cool.

[EasternGirl]

Page 235

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/trad.jpg
Ha ha...I read it right before you put it up...:).

[Natrix]

I'm going with T.radix
The final call becomes yours Rod. Your decision to breed must be your call.
If you have any doubts that it is not a true radix I hope you will not breed it.
From our Skype conversations it looked like this male is working his way into your heart.
Nothing wrong with that.;)
Like I said Steve, Given the comparisons I have done, At the moment I am 98% sure that He is a True radix. Theres is still a very small 2% doubt that he is a Hybrid. In which case he will go into a single sex display enclosure of 'Oddballs'. I am in no way an expert and there are lots of people with far more experience than I. But the only way to learn is to ask questions and seek the answers to those questions. "when you have examined all the evidence and excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must therefore be the truth."
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
Apart from counting teeth and doing an autopsy ( not an option ) there is very little else I can do to be 110% sure.

On the subject of hybrids, I have just come accross a similar snake being advertised as a marcianus that is around the same age. I have asked for clearer pictures showing Facial and body scaling and pattern. As yet I haven't had a reply. In the mean-time here are the photos that the guy has put up at the request of another person.
46534654
This guy has been advised about feeding a mainly mice diet. His responce has prompted a link to the care sheet to be provided. I hope that he will respond sometime today.
Meanwhile it's great to be using my brain again. Actually looking closely and observing small detail rather than just admiring the colour and the pattern. It is very easy to look at an animal on a computer screen and miss the small details that really matter. I hope that this thread will encourage people to look more closely at their charges and see what makes the Thamnophis species such special little snakes. I really DO need to get a hold of one of those 'Bibles'. ;) (I have the link saved on my PC and filed for future reference):)

[EasternGirl]

I don't know...with the spots I am seeing in that pic...I can't see a marcianus right now...but I will have to see more pics. A diet of mice only is not as worrisome as a diet of fish alone. There are actually members and breeders on here that I believe feed diets of pinkies only and do fine. The fish only diet is the worry with the B1 deficiency. Although most of us do suggest a varied diet is best for the optimum health of the garter.

[chris-uk]

I think you're about as certain as you can be Rod. The small details that you can observe first hand are more valuable than the rest of us seeing things in photos. If you think it's a radix the only thing better than you making observations and seeking help to interpret what your seeing, would be the first hand observations of someone like Steve (let's face it if he couldn't make the call on radix/not a radix nobody is going to). But that's not an option.

And I thoroughly recommend getting your hands on the garters bible, I pondered it for a while because £50 is lot for a book that is almost 20 years old (the information anyway, my copy is spanking new and shrink wrapped). There's a few sellers on Amazon marketplace that have copies.