T.s. parietalis Coloring: Whats the Norm and whats Not

[InsanePirateDragon]

A total Newbie question here, but I just want more visuals of what to really expect. This is for those who have these guys and all the shades that they come in. I'm not sure how red these guys get since Marley's my first Parietalis so I'm not sure what to expect.

Now Marley's a WC Kansan Strain so I know thats going to factor in so she might be and extreme and unique in some ways, thats pretty much all that I know but I don't know really what to except, I couldn't produce much from trusty Google.

But how red are yours guys' Parietalis. Did they loose color as they got older or did they color up more or are they from Kansas strains.

[chris-uk]

My parietalis was wild caught, probably from Canada. She has no red at all, not even between the scales when she's eaten and bulging.

[ConcinusMan]

Very high red CB lines are available in the hobby after years of captive selective breeding but really high reds are rare in the wild, and many "red sided" do not have red at all or just traces of red. If you'll notice, sirtalis is a species that was first described on the east coast of north america. (eastern garter, T. sirtalis sirtals) so naturally, going north and/or west, when they discovered a T. sirtalis subspecies that tends to have red on the sides, they named it "red sided". It wasn't until many years later that other sirtalis subspecies were discovered, especially on the west coast, that they realized other sirtalis subspecies actually tend to have a lot of red on their sides. Even more so than "red sided" (parietalis)

Fitchii, infernalis', concinnus' have consistently more red than parietalis'. But the naming was already done. What can you do? You know?

There really is no "norm" for parietalis. Some regions have very black individuals with little to no red. Some are more brownish/yellow and resemble some eastern garters.

This brings up another point about naming/describing. When they got around to the Pacific Northwest, CA red sided and Red sided had already been named and described. When naming T. s. concinnus I have a theory on why they got that name. They couldn't very well have another "red sided" since two of them already are described and that's besides fitchi, which always has red. So what to do?

Well, this fitchi subspecies tended to be more common in low lying valleys, even if those valleys are high in the mountains. So.. "Valley garter" is the name they got.

Well, in the range of concinnus, it is the only sirtalis around. It was also the only snake in that area that was consistent in it's coloring. You got the northwesterns which are highly variable, you got wandering garters which are also variable, so what do we name this snake? We know it's a T. sirtalis but it's not a red sided or a CA red sided. It's consistent though. It also seems to be limited to NW Oregon.

Well fine. "Oregon Red Spotted" is the common name it received. Due to it's consistency compared to other garters found in the same area, it got the latin name "concinnus" which means, "stylistically congruous. Pretty / pleasing"

[ConcinusMan]

If you'll look at the dates of the first descriptions of the various garter species / subspecies you'll see what they were faced with when naming / describing them and you'll see which were described to science first. Some subspecies names are named after the person who first described them to science. (such as pickering and fitchi) others are descriptive names, such as "concinnus". Eastern garters remained T. sirtalis sirtalis because they were named first as "sirtalis". So, when other sirtalis subspecies were named later, that first sirtalis became T. sirtalis sirtalis.

Makes sense doesn't it? It's abstract, but I can see how this happened.:cool: Just pay attention to the dates, and who first described them and you'll begin to see a pattern. Red sided are only called that because they were the first subspecies discovered with red on their sides. Not because they have it consistently or more so than other garters discovered later.

[GarterGuy17]

Well mine was captive born picked her up at 5 months , she is very orange/red actually.

[chris-uk]

Good bit of information Richard.

[InsanePirateDragon]

Yeah that information is pretty helpful, and explains all the naming for a total newbie to these guys. I know before I came here I didn't know there were so many different subspecies.

And what is considered a high red and what exactly does one exactly look like, Marley has a this weird red fade going into her side stripes that is turning them orange that I haven't seen in any other pictures of Garters that I've found.

[Stefan-A]

Some subspecies names are named after the person who first described them to science.
That would be a big no-no among scientists. When they do carry a person's name, they're usually named in honor of another scientist. For example, Thamnophis sirtalis fitchi was named after the herpetologist Henry Sheldon Fitch, by the herpetologist Wade Fox. They are sometimes named after the people who discovered them, but it is the guy who describes them to science who names them.

I'd also like to point out one thing about common names. They're normally given by the locals. In the case of the red-sided garter, it may well have been given to distinguish it from the other local non-red-sided garters.

[ConcinusMan]

Well mine was captive born picked her up at 5 months , she is very orange/red actually.

Of course, high red is pretty typical of captive born or captive breeders. That can give the false impression that it is the norm. Just like bright orange headed concinnus' or blue pugets. That's what you'll normally see in the hobby but it's not necessarily typical of the subspecies a whole, in the wild.

From what I can tell, high red or anything more than just a little red, actually isn't typical of parietalis' in the wild. People also get the impression that pugets are blue when that's actually not very typical of the subspecies. Blue is the exception, and generally only occurs in a small portion of their range. I suppose it's probably the same for parietalis. There may be some populations with very nice high red individuals, and captive breeding selects for that.

[InsanePirateDragon]

And Kansas is known for its pretty redsided so I was expecting, but what has me curious is how far her coloring is going down her sides, this is one of the best pictures as she was about to shed in the most recent pictures I have of the strange red fade that she has. I've tried seeing if I could find anything similar in others but I haven't had much luck so I'm not sure if its something in Kansas strains or something different entirely. Thats mainly what I'm trying to find out about.

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i234/InsanePirateDragon/IMG_20120314_185242.jpg