All the feeder insects are not recommended as a food sourse for the garter snakes ??

[TiercelR]

... or are there exceptions to this rule ?? i am talking about feeder-roaches as are the lobster-roaches, Blatta lateralis roaches, etc, mealworms, crickets offered for sale in the reptile stores, etc.

I am not talking about of the feeder insects as their main diet, but instead if they are used only as a minor percentage of their diet. Thanks in advance for your replies. Regards.

[katach]

Garter snakes are not able to digest the exoskeleton of insects.

Serpientes de la liga no son capaces de digerir el exoesqueleto de los insectos.

[kibakiba]

They need to be fed an insect free diet. Earth worms, fish and pinkies would be a good, balanced diet.

[EasternGirl]

Yes, what the other members have told you is good advice. Garter snakes cannot digest insects...they should not have any insects in their diet. As Chantel said, the best diet is a mix of frozen/thawed pinky mice, fresh fish fillet, and earthworms.

[TiercelR]

Garter snakes are not able to digest the exoskeleton of insects.

Serpientes de la liga no son capaces de digerir el exoesqueleto de los insectos.
Hi Kat, thanks for your reply.


They need to be fed an insect free diet. Earth worms, fish and pinkies would be a good, balanced diet.
Hi Chantel, thanks for your reply.


Yes, what the other members have told you is good advice. Garter snakes cannot digest insects...they should not have any insects in their diet. As Chantel said, the best diet is a mix of frozen/thawed pinky mice, fresh fish fillet, and earthworms.
Hi Marnie, thanks for your reply.

[TiercelR]

I understand the reasons you said about the garter-snakes are not able of to digest the exoskeleton of the insects, so i understand that is not a good idea giving them in a future.

But curiously each fresh WC garter-snake i had keeped go inmediatly after the crickets just in the first moment they see them fall into their terrariums (since their very first minutes of life in captivity) without any doubts about to prey on crickets just as if the crickets were a common part of their own diets in the wild previous of their captive life. I don´t pretend to say that is right to give insects anyway to the garter-snakes, but ever i had observed this.

And is good to give them as food the captive breeded small arboreal green frogs (which have a dark mask on their eyes) that are sold in bulk in the reptile stores ?? thanks, regards.

[EasternGirl]

Roberto, I do not know anything about those frogs. I would stick to pinkies, fish, and earthworms to be safe. Perhaps another member may be able to tell you something about the frogs though. The garters probably were going after the crickets because they were attracted to the movement of them. I think this is why it is dangerous to give insects to garter snakes. The snakes may try to eat them, but then they would not be able to digest them if they did. I think that if a snake is in the wild and has a choice of something else to eat, it will not eat an insect. However, if a snake is in captivity and very hungry and is only offered crickets, the snake might eat the cricket and then become ill. I could be wrong about this though. I am only guessing. Maybe another member could answer that question better.

[mb90078]

I'm not sure if that specific type of frog is poisonous to garters (as some amphibians are), but as a general rule, most people advise against using any amphibians just for the reason that they typically contain a lot of parasites, that may be transferred to your garter.

I would not be shocked to find out that some garters occasionally eat some insects in some settings (wild or otherwise), even though it may be bad for them. What was suggested above is probably true. When something that moves is dropped into the tank, they are probably automatically thinking "food", without realizing what it is that is being dropped in. I certainly don't question that garters may take them, but I know it certainly isn't the best item for them to eat.

[katach]

Mi primera preocupación con la alimentación de una rana de una especie noserían las secreciones de la piel, posiblemente, es venenoso. Mi segunda preocupación sería ranas suelen tener una gran cantidad de parásitos en los que no sería saludable para su serpiente.

My first concern with feeding a frog of unknown species would be the secretions in the skin possibly being poisonous. My second concern would be frogs usually have a lot of parasites in them that would not be healthy for your snake.

[ConcinusMan]

No insects. Insects are not part of a garter snake's natural diet. Not recommended.

[TiercelR]

Roberto, I do not know anything about those frogs. I would stick to pinkies, fish, and earthworms to be safe. Perhaps another member may be able to tell you something about the frogs though. The garters probably were going after the crickets because they were attracted to the movement of them. I think this is why it is dangerous to give insects to garter snakes. The snakes may try to eat them, but then they would not be able to digest them if they did. I think that if a snake is in the wild and has a choice of something else to eat, it will not eat an insect. However, if a snake is in captivity and very hungry and is only offered crickets, the snake might eat the cricket and then become ill. I could be wrong about this though. I am only guessing. Maybe another member could answer that question better.
Hi Marnie, thanks for your reply.


I'm not sure if that specific type of frog is poisonous to garters (as some amphibians are), but as a general rule, most people advise against using any amphibians just for the reason that they typically contain a lot of parasites, that may be transferred to your garter.

I would not be shocked to find out that some garters occasionally eat some insects in some settings (wild or otherwise), even though it may be bad for them. What was suggested above is probably true. When something that moves is dropped into the tank, they are probably automatically thinking "food", without realizing what it is that is being dropped in. I certainly don't question that garters may take them, but I know it certainly isn't the best item for them to eat.
Hi mb90078, thanks for your reply.


Mi primera preocupacióncon la alimentación deuna ranade una especie noserían lassecrecionesde la piel, posiblemente,es venenoso.Mi segunda preocupaciónseríaranassuelen teneruna gran cantidad deparásitos enlos que noseríasaludable para suserpiente.

My first concern with feeding a frog of unknown species would be the secretions in the skin possibly being poisonous. My second concern would be frogs usually have a lot of parasites in them that would not be healthy for your snake.
Hi Kat, thanks for your reply. The species of frog i am refering is the NA relative of the Hyla arborea, CB ones but not WC, but still the chance of the having of parasites.


No insects. Insects are not part of a garter snake's natural diet. Not recommended.
Hi ConcinnusMan, thanks for your reply.

[ConcinusMan]

Frogs are good garter snake food. If your snake is wild caught, it probably already has parasites so the risk of feeding frogs to it isn't all that high. Frogs do carry tape worms and other parasites that can infect your snake. Freezing the frogs at very low temperatures will usually kill most, if not all of the parasites. Better to feed your snake frogs or small fish that have been previously frozen. Better to do that, then to try to feed them insects. They probably won't eat the insects, and they can't digest them properly even if they did eat them.

[TiercelR]

Frogs are good garter snake food. If your snake is wild caught, it probably already has parasites so the risk of feeding frogs to it isn't all that high. Frogs do carry tape worms and other parasites that can infect your snake. Freezing the frogs at very low temperatures will usually kill most, if not all of the parasites. Better to feed your snake frogs or small fish that have been previously frozen. Better to do that, then to try to feed them insects. They probably won't eat the insects, and they can't digest them properly even if they did eat them.
Hi ConcinnusMan, thanks for your reply. I will take your advice about how to feed with frogs the garter-snakes. I have checked the species and this frogs belongs to the species Hyla eximia but not to the Hyla arborea. Thanks.

[ConcinusMan]

Sounds good. Just freeze them whole at 0 degrees celsius or below. Leaving them frozen for several weeks ensures that most, if not all the parasites will die.

Be sure to thaw them completely before feeding them to your snakes. If the frogs are too big for your snake, you can always cut them up for smaller snakes. Also, taking the guts out will remove many harmful parasites that live in the frogs digestive system, such as tapeworms and liver flukes.

If you have not treated your snake for internal parasites, then chances are he already has them. This is normally not a problem for a young healthy snake. It can become a problem if your snake's immune system is compromised by old age, stress, illness, etc.

[TiercelR]

Sounds good. Just freeze them whole at 0 degrees celsius or below. Leaving them frozen for several weeks ensures that most, if not all the parasites will die.

Be sure to thaw them completely before feeding them to your snakes. If the frogs are too big for your snake, you can always cut them up for smaller snakes. Also, taking the guts out will remove many harmful parasites that live in the frogs digestive system, such as tapeworms and liver flukes.

If you have not treated your snake for internal parasites, then chances are he already has them. This is normally not a problem for a young healthy snake. It can become a problem if your snake's immune system is compromised by old age, stress, illness, etc.Hi ConcinnusMan, very good advice, thanks !! how is the recommended method for a free of pain sacrifice of the frogs that will be frozen ?? and if you know a link in the forum with good and reliable advice for the tratment of internal parasites on the snakes ?? thanks in advance, regards.

[ConcinusMan]

I just put the live frogs in a plastic bag and put them in a freezer about 18 degrees C, or colder. I don't know if they actually feel any pain. They just go to sleep and freeze solid within just a few minutes. So, if they do feel anything, their discomfort is brief. I'm sure that killing them this way is not as horrible as being eaten alive by a snake.:cool:

[kibakiba]

I do the same as Richard. The ones I have froze died within 5 minutes, so it's not too bad. It's better than an agonizing 10 ish minutes being eaten butt first with lots of needle teeth and being envenomed. Even my frogs are nicer than that. I don't know if it's just my frogs, but they rip the heads off of their crickets, and eat them butt first too.

[ConcinusMan]

It's hard to judge when death occurs though. I've found pacific chorus frogs frozen stiff outside, hard as a rock and by all appearances dead, but they survived it. Still, I think that any frogs you're going to find in southern mexico are going to die pretty fast in the freezer.

[kibakiba]

The chorus frogs in my area (and I am speaking soley from my experience) only come out around 60-70 degrees and leave if it gets even a degree cooler. I think they wouldn't live with 10-20 degrees f. But, I haven't had any that lived after thawed. I was going to breed mine to use the tadpoles as little treats, and just-morphed frogs as treats for my snakies.

[ConcinusMan]

The unfortunate frogs I speak of are those that were hopping along on a nice warm rainy night when it suddenly turned to freezing rain and dropped down into the teens. Frogs just stayed there, as if time stood still. Somehow they do survive it.

On that note, the rain did turn to snow overnight less than two weeks ago and dropped down to about 34 degrees with two inches snow of accumulation. Didn't seem to bother the frogs in the backyard. They just kept right on croaking and breeding. There's lots of early stage eggs all over the place. Just for the heck of it, I brought some in to warm up and hatch. Keeping them in a container with shallow water at room temp. When they hatch, I just give them goldfish flake food, finely grounded and sunk to the bottom. 60 days or so later, you got little froglets, and they are probably parasite free. gourmet feast for little garters.

Don't get me wrong. I love the little froggies too, and have kept them as pets. Just saying, it's really easy to collect eggs and raise up little frog-lets if you want to give your snakes a treat.

[NickB]

I remember reading a report of Natrix Maura (Viperine) eating flies in the wild, someone posted about seeing it on some website. Ofcourse flies don't really have much of an exoskeleton though. Out of interest how come Thamnophis can't digest exoskeletons but they can digest skeletons from rodents?

PS.
I know I bumped this. I was searching for something and bumped into this.

[Stefan-A]

I remember reading a report of Natrix Maura (Viperine) eating flies in the wild, someone posted about seeing it on some website. Ofcourse flies don't really have much of an exoskeleton though. Out of interest how come Thamnophis can't digest exoskeletons but they can digest skeletons from rodents?

PS.
I know I bumped this. I was searching for something and bumped into this.
Different material. Chitin requires different enzymes (chitinase), or, according to wikipedia, "bacterial symbionts and lengthy fermentations". You'll also find that many animals have trouble with keratin as well.

I'd also like to hear more about this fly eating thing.

[ShadowBeast]

The only way I'd trust feeding a snake a frog would be feeding it tank raised frogs since they would have less chance of parasites.
It's strange that garter snakes can't digest insects and yet some garter snakes are able to eat eggs.

[guidofatherof5]

Egg is a completely different substance.

[NickB]

Different material. Chitin requires different enzymes (chitinase), or, according to wikipedia, "bacterial symbionts and lengthy fermentations". You'll also find that many animals have trouble with keratin as well.

I'd also like to hear more about this fly eating thing.

Aaah thanks for sharing, very interesting. A quick google for the fly stuff and I found this person claiming to have seen it: Viperine Snake Natrix maura (http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php?topic=3541.0) but that certainly isn't the one I read before, which is more intriguing as it shows their are multiple people who believe they've witnessed Maura hunting flies. I've never read any particularly reliable source claiming it though, it's always just posts on forums.

[ConcinusMan]

Egg is a completely different substance.

Yeah, egg shell and bones are no problem. The hardness is calcium which is easily disolved by any strong (stomach) acid. Keratin (hair, nails/claws, scales) insect exoskeletons (chitin) is hard protein. As you might know by experiencing a hair clogged drain, that takes a strong alkaline (sodium hydroxide found in drain cleaners) to break up, or as Stefan mentioned, enzymes that most animals lack in their digestive process. It just takes too long to break down, and plugs them up.

[NickB]

Yeah, egg shell and bones are no problem. The hardness is calcium which is easily disolved by any strong (stomach) acid. Keratin (hair, nails/claws, scales) insect exoskeletons (chitin) is hard protein. As you might know by experiencing a hair clogged drain, that takes a strong alkaline (sodium hydroxide found in drain cleaners) to break up, or as Stefan mentioned, enzymes that most animals lack in their digestive process. It just takes too long to break down, and plugs them up.

So by that logic feeding whole mice isn't good due to the keratin on the nails?Would it be better to cut the feet off?

[guidofatherof5]

So by that logic feeding whole mice isn't good due to the keratin on the nails?Would it be better to cut the feet off?

What you are talking about is "blind logic" This is not always the best way to solve a problem or make a decision.;)

[NickB]

What you are talking about is "blind logic" This is not always the best way to solve a problem or make a decision.;)

That's why I used a question mark ;) So Keratin must be fine in small enough amounts that it can just pass through the system? Kind of like us eating sweetcorn.

[kibakiba]

I was too tired to type when I first looked at this thread, but..
I think that since pinkies are so small, and are (slightly) hairless, it doesn't hurt the snake to feed them regularly. Older mice, I wouldn't feed unless they were skinned. I don't think a little bit of mouse nails are going to kill or harm a snake as long as they're able to pass it.

[Stefan-A]

So by that logic feeding whole mice isn't good due to the keratin on the nails?Would it be better to cut the feet off?
The fur is the first thing that comes to mind. The short answer is that even they can't digest it, it doesn't mean it's a problem. Those animals that can't pass it, regurgitate it.

[ssssnakeluvr]

plus the nails are so small they won't block up the snake, will just pass on thru

[EasternGirl]

This is all very interesting to read. Just read over the last few posts...good info.

[ShadowBeast]

Yeah, egg shell and bones are no problem. The hardness is calcium which is easily disolved by any strong (stomach) acid. Keratin (hair, nails/claws, scales) insect exoskeletons (chitin) is hard protein. As you might know by experiencing a hair clogged drain, that takes a strong alkaline (sodium hydroxide found in drain cleaners) to break up, or as Stefan mentioned, enzymes that most animals lack in their digestive process. It just takes too long to break down, and plugs them up.
Isn't a worms skin made of chitin?

[guidofatherof5]

I don't believe so.

[d_virginiana]

Isn't a worms skin made of chitin?

The setae (microscopic bristles used for movement) are made of chitin, but they're so small they don't matter... Kind of like someone chewing their fingernails ;)