My Garter Snake is making a strange noise.

[Brittany26]

Hello,
I have a ~6 year old checkered garter snake, Steavy. Roughly 2 months ago out of the blue, I heard a very strange and alarming noise come from him. I have witnessed him do it in front of me several times. What happens is that, first, he will expand/ puff up very big in his mid section, and he will open his mouth very wide, and lastly, make a sound. This noise is hard to explain, but it is kinda of like a squirting noise, kind of like a juicy fart (I know that sounds strange lol) almost like air is being forced out of him, then after he is finished, he breathes very fast like he was startled. It is so loud that it wakes me up and night. 95% of the time he makes these noises at night, probably 1-4 times a day, varying. Also, he was recently diagnosed with a RI infection by my vet, which told me I have caught it early. I also told her about the weird noise, but she didn't say anything. I've been giving him oral meds (baytril) for 2 weeks. He seems the same, but I just don't know what to do, I have no clue what this noise is and it's driving me crazy, well thank you for reading this.
~Brittany

[infernalis]

welcome to the forum.

This seems like RI symptoms, those wet sounds are fluids in the respiratory tract.

Could you please give us a detailed description of your cage temperatures, a photo of your setup??

It seems like 2 weeks of baytril would have had some positive effect by now.

Good luck with this..

[Brittany26]

Yeah that sounds right. I usually use aspen bedding, but since he has a RI I switched over to paper towels to reduce dust. He has a heating pad covering less then half of his cage and a heat lamp. I recently got him a UVB light. He has a pretty large water bowl that he can fit in, some plastic leaves, and a cave. The cold side is roughly 70-75 degrees, and the warm side about 85. Also, about the baytril, I have noticed no major differences in his behaivor. Before the meds, he was clicking and making the strange noise. He still does both, and I forgot to mention, 2-3 times when he made the noise, A little bit of blood came out after he opened his mouth (less then a drop) I will try to post a short video of him and his cage tommorow.
Thanks

[EasternGirl]

I know when my garter had a respiratory infection, I increased the heat in her enclosure up to 86 on the warm side and at least 75 on the cold side during the day, and I also made sure to keep it warmer at night for her as well...never letting it go below 80 on the warm side at night or 70 on the cool side. I also made sure to keep the humidity up around 40% to 50% at all times. This helped a lot. She has chronic respiratory problems and I have to always make sure to keep it a little warmer for her than I would with another snake. If it gets too cool at night, I notice her symtoms acting up. My vet did not prescribe Baytril...he prescribed Ceftazidime that had to be administered in injections...I had to give her an injections every 3 days for a total of 10 injections. She responded very quickly...she got better after the first injection. I would definitely call the vet if you haven't seen improvement at this point. Perhaps your vet needs to try a different antibiotic. I know my vet said that Baytril was not the antibiotic of choice for my garter's RI. I hope this helps. As Wayne said a detailed description of your cage temps, humidity, and a photo of your set-up would help.

[gregmonsta]

As Wayne said - I would have expected a more positive result from the baytril. I had results within 3 days when I last had to deal with an RI. This does sound more serious, especially as you say there's blood involved. I would be straight back to the vet. A swab and test to isolate the type of RI or, indeed, to check for other potential issues.

[Brittany26]

I also noticed he hasn't made the noise last night and the night before, which was strange, in a good way. I think it is because it has gotten up to the near 80's and the nights were a lot warmer than usual.(It was freezing cold all last week and all before that.) I'm hoping since the warm weather is approaching, his symptoms will slowly damper away. He seems pretty healthy, he eats very well (pinkies and fish), poops A LOT, clear eyes and skin, which is why i'm not sure if want to take him to the vet right now. (Unless it gets worse of course) His last dosage ends tommorow. I am just worried about the noise he makes because it does not sound like wheezing or coughing. And I have a question, I don't have a humidifier thing for him, so should I just take a spray bottle and spray the cage? I just don't know how much and how often I should. I also came up with an idea by mistake, I washed his plastic leaves with water, and they're wet/damp inside his cage, so I guess that may help. Here's a quick video his cage; Garter Snake Cage - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwOtv0cJQqY&feature=youtu.be)

[chris-uk]

I tend to spray the leaves in my tanks to keep the humidity up. I actually use old nasal sprays (from my hayfever) which I wash out and fill with water. Spraying on leaves means that the substrate doesn't keep getting damp.

[ConcinusMan]

That sounds like it actually wasn't caught early and has likely advanced into pneumonia. "caught early" would be if the infection was still in the upper respiratory tract. Some sneezing, possible nasal discharge, occasional gaping to breathe, thats upper. Snake equivalent to "sniffles" What you described sounds like fluid in the lung. The snake equivalent to a bad cough/chest congestion / pneumonia. A little blood is normal for pneumonia.

Most RI's in garters are caused by normal household bacteria and so baytril is very effective. You should see improvement within 5-7 days. However, in the case of pneumonia it could take several months to clear out the fluid and/or mucus even after the infection itself is gone. Symptoms may seem to worsen or lessen at times depending on humidity / temperature having an affect on how much fluid is being expelled out.

If the RI is caused by a virus (uncommon, but it happens) baytril won't help. Viral RI's are extremely difficult if not impossible to recover from.

I had an old female concinnus that caught a bacterial upper RI. I saw significant improvement in symptoms within 5 days of baytril. I continued oral suspension baytril daily for 3 weeks. Symptoms did not fully go away until a month or two later. Temperatures sound OK but don't cool her down at night and it probably wouldn't hurt to go 75-90.

How are you giving the meds? I know you said orally but how? make sure the snake is getting the full proper dose down and keeping it down. Don't skip doses and don't exceed dosage. I wouldn't stop until she's been taking it for at least 3 weeks.

Just follow the vets recommendations carefully. Like I said, with a case of pneumonia it could take weeks or longer for the symptoms to subside even after the infection has been beat. It takes time to clear out the fluid / mucous.

[EasternGirl]

The enclosure looks pretty good..although you may want to get some substrate for him in there. The paper towels aren't going to hold a lot of humidity. I have found that aspen works pretty well for holding humidity...you just have to be very careful when feeding, not to let the snake get any of the aspen on the food. Like Chris said, just take a spray bottle of some sort, a clean one, and fill it with water and mist the plants in his enclosure several times a day...you don't want to get the paper towels or any substrate you use wet. If you hear him making that noise anymore or if he shows any other signs that he is ill, I would call the vet.

[Brittany26]

@ConcinnusMan Here's a video I made a couple days ago on giving him baytril. Giving oral medicine to a Garter Snake - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRMbE5S7oiw&context=C43fcd05ADvjVQa1PpcFO75oaMFG64LKBjrwa3VKr-jz6SQtC2paE=)
And as for the spraying, I definetly will do that. I'll add in the aspen next time I clean out his cage, I just wanted to reduce dust. And about the pneumonia, if my snake does have it, will he need any assistance such as an antibiotic?

[guidofatherof5]

Nice video. Good looking T.marcianus.

[Light of Dae]

For reducing dust in aspen I made up a 'sifter' with window screen, Just put a small amount on the screen at a time and shake, tap then place good stuff in tank or clean bag and WHA LA you go dust free aspen. It is time consuming but you seem like the type to take time to do things right.

Just an idea that popped into my head, you could speed up the process a lot by using a vacuum with a screen...

[ConcinusMan]

@ConcinnusMan Here's a video I made a couple days ago on giving him baytril. Giving oral medicine to a Garter Snake - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRMbE5S7oiw&context=C43fcd05ADvjVQa1PpcFO75oaMFG64LKBjrwa3VKr-jz6SQtC2paE=)
And as for the spraying, I definetly will do that. I'll add in the aspen next time I clean out his cage, I just wanted to reduce dust. And about the pneumonia, if my snake does have it, will he need any assistance such as an antibiotic?

Baytril is an antibiotic. effective against a wide range of common bacteria including most reptile RI's. You're doing it pretty much the same way I did, and actually the dosage is also the same. My snake was a 3.7 foot old concinnus female and she weighed about 190 grams. 4 units (.04 ml) was her dosage. It's been a year since her ordeal and she's doing fine these days. She's just old, got gravid, add a little stress and viola, you got a RI on your hands. A few younger snakes were in with her and didn't get sick. It's kinda like a senior citizen being more vulnerable to bacterial pneumonia after they just got over a cold. Everyone else who is younger and has a stronger immune system in the house wont get sick. You probably nothing you did wrong. Just one of those things that happens .

Don't forget to keep that suspension very cold at all times (41-45 degrees F) and throw out the remainder after a few weeks, when treatment period has ended. Potency drops dramatically after that and giving weak or expired antibiotics only breeds resistant bacteria for the future generations. In other words, weak or old doses does more harm in the long run, than giving none at all.

If your snake is in the mood to eat you can also attach a needle to that syringe and inject the dose into a nice solid chunk of tilapia, or inject it into the skull cavity of a pinky mouse.;) However, you'll have to add a bit of water since the suspension will normally clog the needle at full strength.

The only difference between upper RI and pneumonia is where the infection is located. it typically starts in the upper R tract and/or nasal cavity and works it's way down into the lung over time. It's particularly dangerous to snakes because they only have one functional lung.

Warmth 24/7 (no nightly cooling) helps support the action of baytril by supporting the snake's own immune system. baytril doesn't actually kill the bacteria. It simply prevents it from reproducing so that the snake's immune system can get the upper hand. Exactly the opposite of what happened to cause the snake to get a RI from common bacteria in the first place. Snake's immune system slacked off for a bit, and the bacteria numbers got out of hand. That can happen to older snakes, snakes fighting off a basically harmless virus or parasites, stress due to pregnancy, social stress etc. The most common cause is the lack of a wide temperature gradient. Too warm or too cool can both cause RI. A wide gradient allows the snake to better thermoregulate it's own temperature.

As far as the humidity goes, it's a fine line between too humid and too dry. Increased humidity (and good hydration) helps keep the fluid / mucous moist and loose so it can be expelled easier. With that in mind, more severe symptoms such as wheezing and those that you described can actually be a good thing. it indicates that the mucous is loose and the snake is going to be "coughing" it up a lot. Humidity of 50-70 percent should be plenty. You just don't want it 40 or below or the mucous will dry up and be hard to expel. As far as temps go, it's the ambient air temperature that's important. Breathing in cold air only helps the bacteria flourish.

I don't know what brand of aspen you're using but really, any I've ever used wasn't really all that dusty. If the humidity is adequate (at least 50 percent) that aspen dust won't stay airborn long enough to be a problem. I understand the logic, but really, aspen dust is very unlikely to contribute to, or cause the illness.

One more thing, and this is rather important and often overlooked or not mentioned by vets. Oral baytril greatly reduces beneficial gut flora. It reduces the numbers of the good bacteria in the snake's digestive system. This can lead to bloating after eating a large meal, indigestion, vomiting, or simply not getting enough nutrients from their food due to lack of efficient digestion.

Always follow up with a good bird/reptile specific pro-biotic. Wait at least 7 days after the last dose of baytril and give your snake this at every feeding for about a month. It's also good to give a yearly dose to your reptiles "just for good measure" and I also give it to newborns to establish healthy gut flora. it really does make a big difference. Here's the product I use. There's enough in this syringe to treat a huge collection of snakes but this is the only way I know to buy it. It's way more than you need for one snake, but it keeps practically forever: Amazon.com: Bird Bene-Bac® Bird & Reptile Probiotic Gel, 15g Syringe: Pet Supplies (http://www.amazon.com/Bird-Bene-Bac%C2%AE-Reptile-Probiotic-Syringe/dp/B0002TR4S0)

Just have patience with the symptoms. It may just well appear to be worse (coughing up the crud) when it's really getting better.;)

[Brittany26]

He's been doing good as far as I can see. He hasn't made a noise (that I know of) since Monday night. I think the reason he only made the noise as night was because of temperature drop, and now since it's warmer out, it has helped a lot. He just ate a Pinky today. I'm still not convinced that he is 100% better though, he still makes that clicking noise.

[EasternGirl]

I'm not sure what you mean by a clicking noise...but my garters all make a clicking noise when they are nervous. If I pick them up and they start breathing hard because they are nervous, I can hear a small clicking sound coming from their mouths. If you are noticing this when he is breathing heavily...and it seems to happen when you approach him, or hold him...it may be the same thing. I worried about it too at first, but it is just a nervous thing garters do. If you hear wheezing..then that is something different. I have never had a problem with dust with aspen really. In fact, my garter that has the chronic respiratory problems was having a lot of problems with the dust from carefresh, and when I switched to aspen, she did much better with her breathing.

[guidofatherof5]

The clicking noise is probably the glottis opening and closing.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/glottis1.jpg

[ConcinusMan]

Now imagine trying to breathe through a straw (glottis) that is congested by oatmeal (mucous). Imagine that, and you'll know why your snake is doing what it's doing. It will take time to clear it all out. Probably much longer than the actual infection lasts.

[Brittany26]

bump
I have a few questions (sorry if this is a little late)
Since after my snakes 2 week medication was over with (~ a month ago), I bought him a temperature and humidity reader, added aspen bedding, and have been spraying his cage/leaves several times a day. He still continues to click, some days more vigorously than others. Once a day I have been putting Steavy inside a small carrier cage along with a hot/damp wash clothe inside for about 10-15 minutes, and after those 15 minutes his clicking stops momentarily. The temperatures during the day are usually in the low 90's and the cool side around 85 degrees. Steavy continues to make the noise (varying) roughly twice a night, sometimes more. After seeing the disappointing results of 2 weeks of oral baytril, it seemed as if it helped little to non (I'm sure it did to some degree) As only being 14, it's hard to say I will be able to take my snake back to the vet, considering my parents. He still eats like a champ and continues to thrive and be active when I take him out. Also, when he makes the squirting noise, I see what looks like water (most likely mucus), just a drop or so come out and he drinks it back down. Oh and by the way, the humidity reads only 30-50 max during the day time, regardless if I spray it or not, though it may go up to 60 for a short time If I spray near the thermometer. But during the night the humidity goes up to a soild 70. I am just wondering If there is anything else I can do to make Steavy's life a little bit easier. If it comes to me using my own money and convincing my parents to take him back to the vet, I will. But with the results of last time, what would they do? It did virtually nothing to Steavy, clicking continued, sound never went away. I don't want to "waste" another 50 dollars to find it went to no use. Thank you for taking your time to read this, and thank you for your kind advice it was/is very helpful.

[guidofatherof5]

The only clicking noise I've ever heard from my garters is the glottis opening and closing.
It never had anything to do with an illness.

[kibakiba]

It's just his glottis. He's always going to click. Most of them do.

[chris-uk]

If he's eating, growing and shedding, don't worry too much. As already said, the clicking is normal, most do it to some degree, some click louder and more frequently than others.
Just keep him in good conditions (it sounds like your temps and humidity are good) and enjoy watching him grow.

[ConcinusMan]

The temperatures during the day are usually in the low 90's and the cool side around 85 degrees. .

Seems a bit too hot. While low 90's on the warm side or an isolated basking spot isn't really a problem, I would try not to have the cool end ambient air temperature exceed 75.

Don't worry about a clicking noise when they breathe. That's nothing to be concerned about. Wheezing, rattling, gaping (opening mouth to breathe in) labored breathing, nasal discharge.... those are bad. Also, even if the antibiotics have worked for clearing up a R.I., it usually takes a while longer for the lung / upper respiratory tract to completely clear up. Some minor residual symptoms can remain for several weeks. It doesn't necessarily mean the snake is still sick.

And just for the record, if your substrate is very dusty, about the only thing that's going to cause is quick sneezing when the snake clears it's nostrils. In most cases, dust is not going to actually be the primary cause of R.I. What little bit of dust you may find in your aspen, is not going to cause major issues or infections.

The main causes of R.I. in snakes is common household bacteria and lack of a proper temperature gradient. A lowered immune system response (even if it's only brief) allows the bacteria to take hold. Lowered immune response can be caused by as I said, improper gradient. Keeping them too warm (for example 85 on the cool end, 90's on the other) or uniformly hot, will cause problems faster than keeping them too cool. Other causes of lowered immunity are becoming gravid, internal parasite infections, old age, social stress, etc. Anything that leaves the immune system overtaxed or weakened, at any given time, including fighting a "harmless" virus for which there are often no symptoms.

There just seems to be this sense that keeping them overly warm is going to help. The opposite is true. It may seem to relive the symptoms temporarily, but is actually very harmful and could be the cause of the R.I. in the first place. Also, it's highly unlikely that dusty aspen is the cause so quit worrying about that.

Get that gradient right. It's too warm. A basking area of low 90's is just fine but not if you have to warm the entire tank to achieve that. Ambient air temperature on the cool side, and throughout most of the enclosure shouldn't be that high. Low to mid 70's is where it should be.

Using warmer temperatures temporarily is fine for relieving symptoms and helping out during the antibiotic therapy but it should only be temporary. Just for a couple of weeks at the most. Keeping them continuously warmer than they should be actually causes infections, it doesn't help them.

[Brittany26]

Okay, thank you. I will turn his heat lamp off for short periods of time throughout the day to lower temperatures. Also I recently bought him a UV light that is placed directly above his cool side, which gives off a little heat. He has also been in the water bowl quite a lot from time to time (from being too warm i'm guessing) I'm also having trouble keeping his humidity up during the day. I pretty much spray his leaves/hide every hour, but i'm afraid too much water will produce fungis/bacteria growth.

[EasternGirl]

Spray the leaves, but not the hide. Spraying the leaves several times a day should not cause any problems with bacteria growth. If you have plastic plants...they should just dry off. Make sure to gently mist the plants and try to stay away from misting the substrate...you don't want wet/moist substrate...that isn't good for the snake's skin. I often take a towel and cover 3/4 of the tank top to increase humidity. I cover the top up until the point where I have the lamp on the warm side...to decrease air circulation. You can also try making a moist hide. Get some sphagnum moss and moisten it and put it inside one of his hides...spagnum moss can be kept moist without problems with bacteria growth.

[ConcinusMan]

Okay, thank you. I will turn his heat lamp off for short periods of time throughout the day to lower temperatures.

Just use the right heat sources / wattages so you don't have to turn them on and off.:cool:

[EasternGirl]

You could also get a thermostat. I always recommend using one. Set the thermostat to the desired temp and then it will switch the lamp off if it should go above that temp. It's a good idea to have one anyway so that you don't have a situation in which your temps get too high when you aren't around or your lamp shorts out and gets too hot causing your temps in your enclosure to get too hot.