New garter - I just couldn't help myself

[chris-uk]

I went out to play a game of hockey today, it was an away game so an hour and a half up the road. The trouble was I'd been told about an aquatic shop nearby, which had a good reptile room.

After checking out the boas, the pythons, bypassing the corns, checking out a breeding pair of Florida pine snakes (quite a pretty pair), I finally found a viv labelled "Northern Garter Snakes" (feel free to jump in now Greg. Apparently there's a supplier going around selling this previously unknown species) which after questioning the staff I determined were T. sirtalis.
I couldn't help myself, and justify it on the grounds that Vlad needs a viv mate. So I've picked out one that looks like it's a male. I was actually quite impressed, they had five and they have to be from the 2010 breeding season (it seems to be too much to ask for even good shops over here to have any information about the snakes they are selling). They at least told me that the garters were feeding on pinkies and worms.

So we have a new garter, I've named him Nobby (after Corporal Nobby Nobbs of the Ankh Morpork City Watch). When he's done his time in quarantine he can be company for Vlad. And I can look for a female radix as a viv mate for Lacrimosa.
I think he is a T. s. sirtalis, it's evening and the light isn't good enough for decent pics, but he looks like the pictures I've seen of Easterns.

[guidofatherof5]

Niiiiice.

[EasternGirl]

Well of course I will say...an eastern! Well done! I look forward to pics! Congrats on the new addition.

[chris-uk]

So I lied about light being bad for photos. Here's a couple, so Marnie (being one of the forum's Eastern queens) confirm that this is an Eastern (bearing in mind they were labelled as "Northern")...
And the second pic is hopefully good enough to garner some opinions on our new snake's vent.

4172

4173

Oh, and it is 64g and about 65-70cm long, not sure how that compares to other people's Easterns. Does the size of him tie in with my guess that he's about 18 months old?

[PINJOHN]

So I lied about light being bad for photos. Here's a couple, so Marnie (being one of the forum's Eastern queens) confirm that this is an Eastern (bearing in mind they were labelled as "Northern")...
And the second pic is hopefully good enough to garner some opinions on our new snake's vent.

4172

4173

Oh, and it is 64g and about 65-70cm long, not sure how that compares to other people's Easterns. Does the size of him tie in with my guess that he's about 18 months old?
I would say parietalis

[chris-uk]

Really? Parietalis? There's no red at all, or do parietalis not always have red sides? Although one of the others in the shop did have flecks of red, I didn't pick that one out because I'm pretty sure that one was female.

[guidofatherof5]

That's a good looking girl you've got there Chris. :rolleyes::D

[PINJOHN]

Really? Parietalis? There's no red at all, or do parietalis not always have red sides? Although one of the others in the shop did have flecks of red, I didn't pick that one out because I'm pretty sure that one was female.
no absolutes with garters but you do get lots of parietalis with little or no red, i have always had the impression that the further north you go the less red seem to present itself, there are obviously many exceptions but i have always believed this rule of thumb......besides wait till you get a good meal inside him and i am pretty sure you will start to see some red

[chris-uk]

That's a good looking girl you've got there Chris. :rolleyes::D
No? :( The tail stays wide doesn't it? If this one is female, then every one they had in the shop was female, some of the others even more obviously. It's a good looking garter either way.

[PINJOHN]

just a comment about his sharing quarters with your captive bred snakes its not something i would do with a wild caught even after quarantine

[guidofatherof5]

That's a good looking girl you've got there Chris. :rolleyes::D


No? :( The tail stays wide doesn't it? If this one is female, then every one they had in the shop was female, some of the others even more obviously. It's a good looking garter either way.

Most of my comment was just messing with you Chris but I'm leaning towards female. Just don't know.
It's one of those borderline calls.
You are right. No matter what it's a great looking snake.

[RedSidedSPR]

I

Need.

Room.

:|

ANYHOO he's awesome. That's how it was with my last one. Couldnt freaking help it

[chris-uk]

just a comment about his sharing quarters with your captive bred snakes its not something i would do with a wild caught even after quarantine
Not sure it is WC. But then again I don't know it's CB.

@steve - to be honest, I was picking them out one at a time and looking at the first few I was sure they were female, got to this one and was less certain, checked a couple more and thought they were less likely to be male. So this one was the one I thought looked most male. That doesn't mean it is. Maybe I should have let the guy in the shop probe it, but I read so much online about probed snakes being incorrectly ID'ed, and I don't like the risk of a probing injury.

[PINJOHN]

Not sure it is WC. But then again I don't know it's CB.

@steve - to be honest, I was picking them out one at a time and looking at the first few I was sure they were female, got to this one and was less certain, checked a couple more and thought they were less likely to be male. So this one was the one I thought looked most male. That doesn't mean it is. Maybe I should have let the guy in the shop probe it, but I read so much online about probed snakes being incorrectly ID'ed, and I don't like the risk of a probing injury.
Chris i am pretty certain it is wild caught they have been coming through for several years now and the wholesaler has been pushing them as northern garters, which is rarely contested by the owners of the pet shops ....there are eastern and western so why not northen seem to be the logic i have got some myself as i think its important to get some new blood before it's no longer possible.

[chris-uk]

Whatever it is. There's some more new blood sat in my hallway John, if you ever need stud services. :)

I just wish some of the shops would challenge the naming - if I owned a shop in wouldn't deal with a supplier who didn't work with scientific names, if you know the scientific name you know it's not a "Northern Garter Snake". At the end of the day I think the shops just want garters on the shelf to cater for freaks like us (who won't buy a boa or python) and as a smaller snake to sell to people who look a the pythons and say "oooh, that's a bit big". I haven't heard of any shops that really care to supply garters, perhaps Coast to Coast is the closest but even there it seems to be a second or third line of sales.
Sod it, continental breeders are the way to go. Or you need to know the garter people who have breeding pairs.

[EasternGirl]

Chris...beautiful snake...but I have to tell you...doesn't look like any easterns around here:o. Sorry mate. Easterns usually have more of a checkered pattern under the dorsal stripe...and the dorsal stripe is not so wide and bold. I know what that snake is...but I can't think right now...not a parietalis...I don't think it looks like that. Can I see another pic?

[EasternGirl]

I need to see a pic where I can see any pattern on the snake...

[EasternGirl]

I think the size is probably helping to confirm this isn't an eastern...my male was bigger than that by 18 mos...my female..I don't know her age..but I would imagine a female eastern of 18 mos would be at least 2 1/2 feet. My male was at least 2 feet by 18 mos. Of course I am always ready to stand corrected.

[EasternGirl]

Do these look like your snake? I may have to get ready to be corrected.... Eastern Garter Snake - Ohio History Central

http://www.picsearch.com/imageDetail.cgi?id=qA6cRzko0VkoJY5x1EG4V57tPT-_FJiMPaW5IHlZRNo&width=1261&start=1&q=Eastern%20garter%20snake (http://www.ohiohistorycentral.org/image.php?rec=1044&img=1393)

[chris-uk]

I think the size is probably helping to confirm this isn't an eastern...my male was bigger than that by 18 mos...my female..I don't know her age..but I would imagine a female eastern of 18 mos would be at least 2 1/2 feet. My male was at least 2 feet by 18 mos. Of course I am always ready to stand corrected.
At 65-70cm long, this little on is between 2 and 2.5 feet.

[chris-uk]

The colours are grey dorsal stripe, then solid black stripes (no pattern that I could see, although a faint pattern may be visible if I hold him up in brighter daylight, I'll have a better look), then a grayish gradient down to the belly, the belly is silvery grey (either his natural colour or he's starting to grey up for shed).
He looks like the photos you linked to, although neither of the photos are you clearly the same as him. I'll get some photos taken with my camera on macro, rather than snaps from the phone.

[gregmonsta]

perhaps Coast to Coast is the closest but even there it seems to be a second or third line of sales.


.... they again don't care about IDs or the market ... they are part of my 'frustratation' list ... like to sell 'Northern garters' Texas ribbons' and WON'T take correction ... they know best as far as their point of contact on RFUK goes ... an exchange of PMs did nothing and neither did publicly causing a fuss on one of their threads.
As far as the market goes ... he'll happily tell Sjoerd that he can't sell garters in Britain to bash the price down and then sell these CB animals at less than accepted European breeder price. I know we all love a bargain ... but no wonder the British market is dead. Not many people will see the value in/'appreciate' the value in a snake they can pick up privately for £10-15 or, indeed, one that shops don't differenciate the price of CB/WC for.
Anyway ..... parietalis :rolleyes: not 100% on sex but this is my male:

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//758/Slithboy2.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//758/medium/aperfectcircle.JPG

[EasternGirl]

Okay...I don't know the conversion from cm to inches off the top of my head...and my mother told me 70cm was a foot and a half...sorry! If that's the case...wow...then, yes...at 18 mos., good size! If there is no pattern...no checkering at all...notice the bit of the checkering under the dorsal stripe in the pics I showed you? Now...mind you...the coloring on your snake looks much different from the coloring of the easterns around here...but...I also noticed after looking at those pics, that the coloring on the easterns farther north of here seem to be different. However...the color you are describing doesn't seem to be consistent with easterns here or farther north really. From what I know, easterns tend to be brown, tan, or green in coloring...not grey or black. Greg is showing you his parietalis... but, the color doesn't sound right for that either. But he would know parietalis better than I would. You know who would probably know...Joe. I bet he could take one look at the snake and tell you what it is.

[aquamentus_11]

2.54cm/inch

[EasternGirl]

Now there is a pic here on this page of eastern garters...second pic down...that shows one with the coloring that you described. But whether or not it is actually an eastern, that I don't know. The info on the page also says they eat insects. The problem is I am limited to the easterns in Delaware and apparently the coloring is different in different areas of the country, and there aren't many reliable books on eastern garter snakes.

eastern garter snake (http://www.fcps.edu/islandcreekes/ecology/eastern_garter_snake.htm)

[EasternGirl]

2.54cm/inch

Ouch, but then you are asking me to do math...something I only do in school when I am forced to do it! :D

[aquamentus_11]

i would've called that a female too, chris, but i'm no expert. apparently there are easterns that look like that back in Michigan, though i've only ever seen the ones that Marnie described. most of the time we called them ribbons if they were black. I've never seen a Butler's, could that be one or is that stupid?

the ribbons back home, btw, were very pretty. they had a red/brown ribbon underneath their lateral stripes. wish i could find one, but i haven't seen one since i was very young.

[EasternGirl]

It's not stupid...because I was going to suggest it...when I said in my first post that I knew what the snake was...I realized I had seen a snake just like it. It looks just like a T.proximus proximus to me:

4186

[aquamentus_11]

ribbon?

[EasternGirl]

Yep...western ribbon. Now here is the eastern ribbon...T. sauritus sauritus, they look almost exactly alike:

4187 I think the eastern is browner and has more of a checkered pattern to it..under the dorsal stripe...which is what I notice about most easterns. The western ribbon looks more of a greyish color, like what Chris was describing of his snake. Of course, this could be a pic of Cee Cee...looking at it...the coloring and all. The thing about ribbons that I have noticed, they tend to be more slender...their heads look longer to me...and their tails are much longer. The area of the top of the body and the lower part of the body tend to be long and slender compared to a garter.

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...looking back at Chris' pick...I can't see the tail...but the head doesn't say ribbon to me. But I don't know. I'm dumbfounded at this point. I would ask Joe.

[snakehill]

Richard would probably know too!

[gregmonsta]

Not a ribbon ... it still says parietalis to me :rolleyes:

[EasternGirl]

Really? Don't they have red in them? All of the ones I have seen have red. Isn't that what Nate, John, Ashley and Kat have? Because it doesn't look like their snakes.

[EasternGirl]

It looks kind of like a Butlers...but it's too big to be a Butlers...

[gregmonsta]

Really? Don't they have red in them? All of the ones I have seen have red. Isn't that what Nate, John, Ashley and Kat have? Because it doesn't look like their snakes.

answer


no absolutes with garters but you do get lots of parietalis with little or no red, i have always had the impression that the further north you go the less red seem to present itself, there are obviously many exceptions but i have always believed this rule of thumb......besides wait till you get a good meal inside him and i am pretty sure you will start to see some red

:rolleyes: .... page 1 of thread ... when I picked Slithers out of a litter he was one of 3 parietalis in a litter of 20+ that showed any red -

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//758/medium/aperfectcircle.JPG

So if this guy was the 'pick of the bunch' for red can you imagine what the rest where like?

And no ... it's not a butlers either ... you 100% cannot get those in the UK ...

[EasternGirl]

I love that name...Slithers. Well, yeah...I knew it was too long to be a Butlers. Maybe it is a parietalis then. I'd still like to see some more pics...some up close shots of the patterns. But the stripes fit...and it doesn't look like any easterns I've seen. Again..you know parietalis...I've never seen one in person. :)

[chris-uk]

Thanks for the input so far.

I'm looking at the consensus and at the moment female parietalis seems to be it. We've been out all day today, but tomorrow I will get some better photos in daylight.

I've just been talking to Pinjohn, and what he's been telling me about parietalis ties in with Greg's post about them not always having red (or in fact that high red is the exception).

[kibakiba]

Not all easterns look the same, you have to remember too. They look different from area to area

[EasternGirl]

Right...if you look back over the thread...Chantel...I was realizing that as I was doing more and more research on easterns in different parts of the country...but they still tend to have certain similarities that remain constant...such as the checkered pattern under the dorsal stripe, the three stripes, and the coloring tends to be brown, tan, or green...although it can vary in shade. I also wanted to add that I mispoke earlier...Kat and Ashley have northwesterns, not red-sided garters. Well...if it is a parietalis, Chris..that is a wonderful snake to have. They are lovely. Good work, Greg, in figuring that one out. This was an awesome thread...I enjoyed all the research I did on easterns...I ended up learning even more about my favorite garter...and more about some of the other species as well.

[ConcinusMan]

Really? Parietalis? There's no red at all, or do parietalis not always have red sides? Although one of the others in the shop did have flecks of red, I didn't pick that one out because I'm pretty sure that one was female.

Parietalis was my first impression as well. They don't always have red, and the ones that don't, look just like that. Could very well be an eastern though.:cool: I'm still leaning toward parietalis though. I've seen group photos of them taken in Canada and they didn't have any red, or a few of them just had hints of red. They looked like your snake. Might be why they were labeled "northern". Many parietalis' from Canada get that label when they arrive overseas.

[chris-uk]

One of the others, which I didn't get because it looked "more female", did have some red flecks. Not a lot, but some. But I still went with Eastern because I read that Easterns sometimes show red between the scales.
I'm becoming convinced by the parietalis argument though, and if they were collected in Canada it would explain the erroneous "Northern" label.

[ConcinusMan]

Another example...

(Canada) Red sided. As you can see, many lack red. In some populations they appear brownish instead of black.

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/assets/2012/02/06/sn-sexysnakes.jpg

[EasternGirl]

The coloring between the scales on mine is black...but I don't know what the coloring would be on some of the browner looking easterns that I saw pics of from farther north. Perhaps they show some red in between the scales. I wish I could find a good, reliable book written about easterns.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, to confuse matters, a red spotted eastern can look more like a parietalis than an actual parietalis without the red. Hope that made sense. Even though the "northern" label is erroneous, it probably indicates where they came from, which would make them most likely parietalis'. I think it's common practice to raid the communal dens and ship them overseas in bulk, labeled as "northern" garter snake. More than half probably die during shipping but collecting great numbers at the Canadian dens ensures that at least some will survive the long trip.

[chris-uk]

I think it's common practice to raid the communal dens and ship them overseas in bulk, labeled as "northern" garter snake.

Now that makes my purchase feel more guilty.

[EasternGirl]

I never think of them as easterns...I think of them as a species in their own right. I don't think we even have them around here do we? But I mean, if you are going to call a red-spotted an eastern, then isn't a parietalis technically an eastern too...and a fitchi, and infernalis, etc. I mean they are all subspecies, right? Of the sirtalis? But when we say eastern...we are really referring to the subspecies sirtalis sirtalis, correct?

[ConcinusMan]

Sorry, wasn't meant to make you feel guilty.:o It was more of another point why I think it's a parietalis. It's a long trip. They need to find large numbers quickly, and ship in large numbers in order for some to make to market. Parietalis fits the bill. You're not the first European to show us a red sided that was purchased as a "northern"

It is a WC snake and probably hasn't been dewormed or anything. Keep that in mind.;)

[ConcinusMan]

But when we say eastern...we are really referring to the subspecies sirtalis sirtalis, correct?

Yes. And when I say "red sided" I mean T. sirtalis parietalis. When I say "California Red sided" I mean T. sirtalis infernalis.

There's a lot of debate over the validity of subspecies altogether. Easterns and red sided are essentially the same snake if you take away the splitting them into subspecies. If you do that, then they are both just T. sirtalis.

[Stefan-A]

There's a lot of debate over the validity of subspecies altogether. Easterns and red sided are essentially the same snake if you take away the splitting them into subspecies. If you do that, then they are both just T. sirtalis.
What kind of debate, where?

[ConcinusMan]

I seem to recall a lot debating going on right here and in other communities. I also seem to recall yourself doubting the validity of species, let alone subspecies, since most of the current taxonomy is based on outward appearance and geographic range instead of DNA. I do know that if subspecies were based on DNA instead of outward appearance then concinnus and pickeringi would be the same subspecies, just different color morphs.

For that matter, why aren't Vancouver Island northwesterns a separate subspecies? They're geographically distinct, and they tend to all be very dark or melanistic. The snakes there are very uniform in color. Black or dark grey with dirty white stripes. You don't see the typical yellows, reds, etc. If they aren't a subspecies than what does it take to make them one? If it's DNA differences then you can just invalidate many subspecies.

This is the kind of debating I'm talking about. It's been going on for decades.

[EasternGirl]

I'm thinking that this has inspired me to do more research on T.s.sirtalis, and to perhaps work on putting a website together in the future dedicated to this species.

[ConcinusMan]

Here's an interesting tidbit for you... you might notice how SF garters and infernalis' look similar, especially where they both occur. You would think that their similarity and close proximity would mean that they are very closely related. Well, DNA tests say otherwise. The tests indicate that SF garters are more closely related to garters in other parts of the country, than they are to infernalis'. That's a head scratcher.

[PINJOHN]

I think it's common practice to raid the communal dens and ship them overseas in bulk, labeled as "northern" garter snake. More than half probably die during shipping but collecting great numbers at the Canadian dens ensures that at least some will survive the long trip.
For many years now the numbers of garters imported into Britain has drastically reduced, my understanding of the situation which may not be totally correct was that the dens in Canada,[ Manitoba and other places] were owned by the native people who collected huge amounts of parietalis and sirtalis sirtalis seeing them as a natural resource and exported them in huge numbers, this was eventually stopped by the Canadian government.
Just what the precise reason for the ban was i never heard, but ii should think it would be either massive over collection/adopting new environmental measures to protect Canadian flora fauna/ or the realization that the pits could become a tourist attraction in their own right/ or a combination of some or all of these, take your pick, my understanding is that the ban on exporting Canadian garters is still in place but as i said before i could be wrong....time i think to hear from our Canadian members.

[chris-uk]

Sorry, wasn't meant to make you feel guilty.:o It was more of another point why I think it's a parietalis. It's a long trip. They need to find large numbers quickly, and ship in large numbers in order for some to make to market. Parietalis fits the bill. You're not the first European to show us a red sided that was purchased as a "northern"

It is a WC snake and probably hasn't been dewormed or anything. Keep that in mind.;)

Guilt is but a fleeting emotion, and I can negotiate with my morals :). I think I'm starting to feel the same way about the UK reptile trade as Greg, however as a man of negotiable morals I may convince myself to accept some aspects as a necessary evil - necessary to feed my garter interest anyway. I think there's more discussion to be had on a different thread.

I'm starting to formulate a quarantine plan, and de-worming is now firmly on the agenda.

[Stefan-A]

yourself doubting the validity of species, let alone subspecies, since most of the current taxonomy is based on outward appearance and geographic range instead of DNA.
I've "doubted" two separate issues in regards to species and subspecies: The permanence of current classification considering the leaps forward we've made in the last 15-20 years and the validity of the biological species concept, in contrast with other species concepts.


I do know that if subspecies were based on DNA instead of outward appearance then concinnus and pickeringi would be the same subspecies, just different color morphs.
On what grounds? Is there reproductive isolation, or do they mix randomly? Do they show a preference for their own subspecies, or do they show no particular preference at all.


For that matter, why aren't Vancouver Island northwesterns a separate subspecies? They're geographically distinct, and they tend to all be very dark or melanistic.
Being geographically distinct doesn't imply that there's reproductive isolation, which would be a basic requirement before you make a split. Another requirement would be that the population be genetically distinct from the mainland population.


If they aren't a subspecies than what does it take to make them one? If it's DNA differences then you can just invalidate many subspecies.
Reproductive isolation, not counting the rare exception. And the problem would be what, exactly?


This is the kind of debating I'm talking about. It's been going on for decades.
Not interested in kinds of debating, only the specific issue.

[chris-uk]

I said I'd get some better photos, so here's some from this evening (unfortunately not in good daylight, but at least taken with the camera on macro, as opposed to quick camera shots).
You can see that there is absolutely no pattern in the black stripes. Colour-wise, I'd described the dorsal stripe as being more grey than anything, in better light there is a yellow tinge to it. There's definitely no red, even between the scales.

Anyway, the photos (click to enlarge):

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/NobbyNobbs_001_-_cropped_1000w.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=10398&title=27-feb-2011corporal-nobbs&cat=734)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/NobbyNobbs_019_-_cropped_800w.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=10401&title=27-feb-2011corporal-nobbs&cat=734)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/NobbyNobbs_016_-_cropped_1000w.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=10399&title=27-feb-2011corporal-nobbs&cat=734)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/NobbyNobbs_017_-_cropped_1000w.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=10400&title=27-feb-2011corporal-nobbs&cat=734)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/NobbyNobbs_020_-_cropped_1000w.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=10402&title=27-feb-2011corporal-nobbs&cat=734)

Hope you like Nobby, s/he's a good looking snake. Unfortunately the vent photos I tried weren't any better than the one I've already posted. I think we'll let Nobby grow a bit before we try with new photos.

[kibakiba]

Are you going to get another one and name it Stoppa? :D (Stoppa and Nobby make music one some of the bellydance CDs I have ;))

[guidofatherof5]

Good looking snake Chris.

Tried to do a scale count. This is what I came up with:

Lateral rows 2 & 3
Dorsal scale count of 17 or 18 (?)
7 Supralabials

[chris-uk]

Are you going to get another one and name it Stoppa? :D (Stoppa and Nobby make music one some of the bellydance CDs I have ;))

If it's female we will should rename it, Corporal Nobbs was male (allegedly). So, if we use a name of a dwarf character we negate the sex issue for Nobby, because:

"It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need. They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart. This has given rise to the foolish opinion among Men that there are no dwarf-women, and that the Dwarves 'grow out of stone'." (LotR, Appendix A, III)

Although on the flipside, Nobby is a good name for this snake given the debate about it's species:

Nobby is the only human known to need to carry a declaration (http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Nobby%27s_note), signed by Lord Vetinari (http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Vetinari) to the effect that; "(f)ollowing affadavits from the midwife and a doctor, I confirm that the bearer is, in all probability, human." It says alot of Nobby's apperance that even Death (http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Death) was at a loss as to his exact species. (Hogfather (http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Hogfather) )

So, Nobby is probably a parietalis, but we don't have the papers to prove it.

[EasternGirl]

Nobby is a beautiful snake. Nobby is a perfect name...yes, lol...considering the long thread and all the debating over the species! Is the scale count consistent with that of parietalis, Steve?

[chris-uk]

Good looking snake Chris.

Tried to do a scale count. This is what I came up with:

Lateral rows 2 & 3
Dorsal scale count of 17 or 18 (?)
7 Supralabials

I make it:
Keeled scales.
19 lateral rows (depending which point along the snake I count at I occasionally get 17, but 19 at a head length behind the head), with the dorsal stripe confined to 1.5 scales and lateral stripe confined to row 2 and 3.
7 Supralabials.

Which according to page 260 of The Garter Snakes - Evolution and Ecology, fits a sirtalis. Unfortunately scale count only gets us to the species and not a sub-species (unless anyone knows better?).

[EasternGirl]

Right...and parietalis fits under the species of sirtalis...that's all I could find in the book too...the sirtalis count...I couldn't find subspecies counts. I remember from Steve...if I remember correctly, that easterns have 7 supralabials...and radix have 8? Maybe...But I don't know what red-sided garters have...

[EasternGirl]

Yep...easterns have 7. Just counted Cee Cee's.

[PINJOHN]

I said I'd get some better photos, so here's some from this evening (unfortunately not in good daylight, but at least taken with the camera on macro, as opposed to quick camera shots).
You can see that there is absolutely no pattern in the black stripes. Colour-wise, I'd described the dorsal stripe as being more grey than anything, in better light there is a yellow tinge to it. There's definitely no red, even between the scales.

Anyway, the photos (click to enlarge):

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/NobbyNobbs_001_-_cropped_1000w.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=10398&title=27-feb-2011corporal-nobbs&cat=734)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/NobbyNobbs_019_-_cropped_800w.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=10401&title=27-feb-2011corporal-nobbs&cat=734)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/NobbyNobbs_016_-_cropped_1000w.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=10399&title=27-feb-2011corporal-nobbs&cat=734)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/NobbyNobbs_017_-_cropped_1000w.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=10400&title=27-feb-2011corporal-nobbs&cat=734)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/NobbyNobbs_020_-_cropped_1000w.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=10402&title=27-feb-2011corporal-nobbs&cat=734)

Hope you like Nobby, s/he's a good looking snake. Unfortunately the vent photos I tried weren't any better than the one I've already posted. I think we'll let Nobby grow a bit before we try with new photos.

​parietalis

[EasternGirl]

The consensus has spoken.

[chris-uk]

The consensus has spoken.

Are you calling John a consensus? Hey! John! Marnie just called you a consensus. :p

[PINJOHN]

Are you calling John a consensus? Hey! John! Marnie just called you a consensus. :p
well...my dads bigger than her dad :p

[EasternGirl]

I find that very hard to believe...my father is a bit of a hippo. Don't worry, that's not disrespectful...well, maybe to the hippos. :p

[PINJOHN]

I find that very hard to believe...my father is a bit of a hippo. Don't worry, that's not disrespectful...well, maybe to the hippos. :p
as you brought up the subject did you hear about the two jungle friends elephant Ella and and hippo heather who went to the local wild animal ball, after arriving heather was approached by a rhinoceros who asked her to dance while dancing he asked her name she told him and in return she ask him his name, "its Neil" he replied whereupon she fainted this of course caused quite a stir and water was brought to revive the distressed hippo, when she came around Ella asked just what had caused the swoon I could not help it replied heather.... i have just been dancing with rhino Neil

[badbunny42]

I... Don't... Get... it...
Am I slow?

[PINJOHN]

i... Don't... Get... It...
Am i slow?
yes..... Unless of course he was before your time,:) the heart throb film star ryan o'neal ...say it out loud

[chris-uk]

Never heard of him him, you're showing your age John, and hijacking a perfectly good thread about my new snake.

[EasternGirl]

You've never heard of Ryan O' Neal? Farrah Fawcett's Man...Tatum's father?

[RedSidedSPR]

Definately parietalis. He's red sided all the way. Minus the red sides of course.. ._

[mikem]

i just googled ryan o'neal and i still don't know who he is ><

[katach]

I googled him and he played Bones' dad.

[PINJOHN]

Sorry Chris for sidetracking your thread with that famous actor rhino Neil :o:o.
i was thinking that you could get some high red parietalis from the show and start a project
were you to have purchased a mate for nobby from the same shop with just as little red in it, then breeding them together would have produced young with varying degrees of red, and although non would be high red a lot would have enough red to be instantly recognizable as parietalis.
placing these in a programe with the European high reds would be intersting ang give fresh American genes to the Euro stock ....VOILA.

[EasternGirl]

Mike...I am not that much older than you...Farrah Fawcett! Charlie's Angels? Her boyfriend...husband...whatever. Tatum O'Neil's father. Played Temperence Brennan's father on Bones. Sorry Chris...but come on people! Ryan O' Neil!

[chris-uk]

That could be an interesting project John. Maybe one of the high-red parietalis that are available in Holland.

Sorry Marnie, I've heard of Farah, and Tatum (couldn't tell you anything about him though, but the name rings a bell), but Ryan is a blank. I've probably seen him in an episode of Bones that Char has watched though.

[PINJOHN]

Mike...I am not that much older than you...Farrah Fawcett! Charlie's Angels? Her boyfriend...husband...whatever. Tatum O'Neil's father. Played Temperence Brennan's father on Bones. Sorry Chris...but come on people! Ryan O' Neil!
Alas Marnie life is short and fame is fleeting,
or to quote the immortal bard "LIFE'S ONLY A WALKING SHADOW,A BAD ACTOR,
THAT STRUTS AND WORRIES ABOUT HIS HOUR ON STAGE, AND THEN IS NOT HEARD FROM AGAIN.

OOPS SORRY Chris there i go doing it again :o.....:D

[guidofatherof5]

I think we as a forum need to gather some money together to get John's taxi fixed so he can get back to work. :D

[PINJOHN]

I think we as a forum need to gather some money together to get John's taxi fixed so he can get back to work. :D
A repaired and working car ...the stuff dreams are made of...mine anyway:D but your discernment astounds me, spotting i am bored out of my skull.....surely nothing in my recent posts gave a hint to my mental state :rolleyes:

[guidofatherof5]

A repaired and working car ...the stuff dreams are made of...mine anyway:D but your discernment astounds me, spotting i am bored out of my skull.....surely nothing in my recent posts gave a hint to my mental state :rolleyes:

I had help with my discernment.;)

[snakehill]

Mike...I am not that much older than you...Farrah Fawcett! Charlie's Angels? Her boyfriend...husband...whatever. Tatum O'Neil's father. Played Temperence Brennan's father on Bones. Sorry Chris...but come on people! Ryan O' Neil! Come on! Love Story! (The movie!)

[chris-uk]

A repaired and working car ...the stuff dreams are made of...mine anyway:D but your discernment astounds me, spotting i am bored out of my skull.....surely nothing in my recent posts gave a hint to my mental state :rolleyes:

Being off work, means spending time with the wife - enough to push any man over the edge. ;)


On the snake front...

Nobby has been quite happy to come and sit out in the open over the last few days. Or rather bathe out in the open. S/He's spending a lot of time in the water bowl, is this typical of parietalis? She's in there almost every time we walk past. I know it can be a sign that she's soaking off mites, but nothing visible in the water so far. I am considering stripping the aspen out and just putting her on sheets of white kitchen roll.

The other possibility is that she has just got used to a more humid environment - the reptile room at the shop was humid (presumably for the other reps that lined the room) - and she's just finding the new home a bit dry.

She didn't eat on Monday evening when I fed the other snakes, tried pinky and trout. Will try her again later in the week. Other than that she seems to be settling in OK.

[guidofatherof5]

Good update. Paper towels are a good idea until you know for sure about mites.

[Char361979]

[QUOTE=PINJOHN;201478]yes..... Unless of course he was before your time,:) the heart throb film star ryan o'neal ...say it out loud[/QUOTE
i'm younger than Ben and Chris and I know Ryan O'Neal. Was in Love Story andcurrently plays Temperance Brennan's father in bones. Was also married to Farrah Faucett after her divorce from Lee Majors (million dollor man)... I clearly need to get out more.

I thought Nobby was a girl but Chris never listens to me.

[RedSidedSPR]

Ha

[EasternGirl]

John...I am starting to think you have a little crush on Ryan O'Neal...lol...

Chris...could Nobby be too warm? When Cee Cee starts spending too much time on the cool side or soaking a lot, I turn the temps down. I don't know about red-sideds, but easterns sometimes like it a bit cooler...and then sometimes they enjoy it warm...they can be fickle little buggers! I just have to watch them carefully...see how they are reacting to the temps and adjust accordingly.

[chris-uk]

Good point Marnie. I've not seen her spending time on the warm side. I'll try turning the warm side down.
In the shop the reptile room was kept pretty warm, and unless they had UTH (which I doubt because the ambient temp was warm and humid) the only way the garters could have thermoregulate was with the water. Perhaps she isn't used to the idea of a temperature gradient.

[ConcinusMan]

As chris pointed out, scale counts only confirm that its a sirtalis. That's what makes it a sirtalis. The scale counts. As far as the upper labials go, it can be 7 or 8. I often find sirtalis' that have 7 on one side, 8 on the other.


I said I'd get some better photos, so here's some from this evening (unfortunately not in good daylight, but at least taken with the camera on macro, as opposed to quick camera shots).
You can see that there is absolutely no pattern in the black stripes. Colour-wise, I'd described the dorsal stripe as being more grey than anything, in better light there is a yellow tinge to it. There's definitely no red, even between the scales.

Anyway, the photos (click to enlarge):

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/thamphotos/data//734/medium/NobbyNobbs_001_-_cropped_1000w.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=10398&title=27-feb-2011corporal-nobbs&cat=734)

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/thamphotos/data//734/medium/NobbyNobbs_019_-_cropped_800w.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=10401&title=27-feb-2011corporal-nobbs&cat=734)

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/thamphotos/data//734/medium/NobbyNobbs_016_-_cropped_1000w.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=10399&title=27-feb-2011corporal-nobbs&cat=734)

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/thamphotos/data//734/medium/NobbyNobbs_017_-_cropped_1000w.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=10400&title=27-feb-2011corporal-nobbs&cat=734)

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/thamphotos/data//734/medium/NobbyNobbs_020_-_cropped_1000w.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=10402&title=27-feb-2011corporal-nobbs&cat=734)

Hope you like Nobby, s/he's a good looking snake. Unfortunately the vent photos I tried weren't any better than the one I've already posted. I think we'll let Nobby grow a bit before we try with new photos.

I still say it's a T. s. parietalis in spite of the lack of red.

[ConcinusMan]

Steve has some awesome photos of red sided garters in Canada, some of them completely lacking red. Take a look at them.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data/693/medium/Nar12.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data/500/medium/P5020389_Quick_e-mail_view.jpg

Maybe that will rest your mind that your snake is a red sided (T. s. parietalis) http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/4792-narcisse-dens-4.html


(http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/4792-narcisse-dens-4.html)

[mikem]

Mike...I am not that much older than you...Farrah Fawcett! Charlie's Angels? Her boyfriend...husband...whatever. Tatum O'Neil's father. Played Temperence Brennan's father on Bones. Sorry Chris...but come on people! Ryan O' Neil!

i'm familiar with farrah fawcett. i recognize the name and know she did bay watch. i just looked up the filmography of tatum, ryan o'neal and farrah fawcett.. i haven't seen anything they're in, lol :p

[ConcinusMan]

Wow, way off topic but I have to brag a little. I have a near mint condition Playboy magazine Dec 1978. It was already a collectors item but after she died it quadrupled in value.:D

Same thing happened to the Anna Nichole issue when she died. I just happen to have that one too. Never opened. Pages never touched by human fingers.

I was very young but I have to admit I was a huge "Bay Watch" fan too.:o

Farrah Fawcett was a sex symbol of the 1970's way before Bay Watch.

[aquamentus_11]

my dad and i used to watch Baywatch when I was a kid. it was one of the few things that brought us together during the middle school years. preteen angst is no match for boobs

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...I was going to say...When was Farrah on Baywatch? Wasn't she a bit old for that? Are you thinking of Pamela Anderson?

[RedSidedSPR]

It is a parietalis no doubt in my mind. It looks just like one, minus the red.

[mikem]

Yeah...I was going to say...When was Farrah on Baywatch? Wasn't she a bit old for that? Are you thinking of Pamela Anderson?
i mean charlie's angels . don't know where i got baywatch from. :o

[RedSidedSPR]

Lmfao I was like wtf...

[kibakiba]

Richard said bay watch, that's probably what stuck in your mind.

[EasternGirl]

I loved Charlie's Angels when I was little...my mom and I used to watch it at the beach all the time...that and Dallas, Love Boat, and Fantasy Island. Man, I still wish I could go to Fantasy Island...

[guidofatherof5]

So, Chris how's that new snake doing? ;)

[chris-uk]

She's settling in. Spending a bit less time in her water, but still in there a fair bit.
I offered her food again yesterday, both pinky pieces and trout, which she sniffed and ignored. I tried offering with tongs and leaving it in there in a bowl, so I hope she's just taking her time to get used to her new home.
I'm not handling her, except the couple of times I had her out for photos. On those occasions she quickly settled in my hand though.
So on the whole she's doing okay. Once she's started eating I think I'll consider taking her for a checkup and collecting her poo for a fecal float.

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds good.

[chris-uk]

She ate for the first time today. So a positive on a sad snake day.
Next weekend I plan to get her checked over by the vet.

[guidofatherof5]

She ate for the first time today. So a positive on a sad snake day.
Next weekend I plan to get her checked over by the vet.

Glad to hear she's finally eating. Looks like progress.

[EasternGirl]

Sounds like some progress Chris.

[ConcinusMan]

Sounds good.:)