Thamnophis + Natrix = OK?

[aquamentus_11]

Can you house garters and European grass snakes together?

[EasternGirl]

Now you are thinking about getting a natrix? Ummmm...schizo....just kidding...I have no idea...it would have to be a female of course...but I think you can. Who has a natrix?

[aquamentus_11]

just curious

[guidofatherof5]

I think some members have done it but I'm not sure.
My only concern would be the introduction of foreign pathogens either snake would never be exposed to otherwise.
I may be over thinking the situation but wanted to say something anyway.

[aquamentus_11]

yeah, that would be something to consider i would think. if other members have done it though, it must work out. i'd imagine a male would be ok too since they're different species with completely different reproductive schemes.

[EasternGirl]

I don't think so, Nate...they would still try to mate and then you would end up with the problem we discussed before...the no no of crossbreeding different species.

[PINJOHN]

Can you house garters and European grass snakes together?
Yes you can, i have done it quite a few years ago and its not too uncommon in Europe i think.
when i did it it was with wild caught of both species and not something i would repeat BUT i would have no problem keeping them together if captive bred.

[RedSidedSPR]

Thamnophis + Natrix = WTF

No

[aquamentus_11]

^explain

[RedSidedSPR]

Like already said in the other thread, i see no reason whatsoever, to mix a egg-laying and live-bearing snake of two different genus, risk god knows what, for a most likely fcked up outcome just for the hell of it

Like wtf

[PINJOHN]

Thamnophis + Natrix = WTF

No
You really should raise your head and take a look around ..for more years than i can remember people have kept mixed collections, usually for the aesthetic value, apart from talented snake people it has been done by zoological parks and remains a common practice with them, and yes i know that there have been spectacular **** ups with some zoo's keeping for instance snakes that would prey on their cage mate if left a little too hungry but these are the exception ......if people are so purist then leave the snakes in the wild not contained in melamine or glass ...BUT if you are prepared to dilute your purism just so you can keep these snakes in an unnatural captive state then please allow other people to dilute their purism to a state beyond yours without you being so judgmental

EDIT the above comments are about keeping the snakes together not of course breeding them

[aquamentus_11]

Like already said in the other thread, i see no reason whatsoever, to mix a egg-laying and live-bearing snake of two different genus, risk god knows what, for a most likely fcked up outcome just for the hell of it

Like wtf

redsided, this is a thread about housing them together, not breeding. if you read my comments in the xbreeding thread, you'd know that i don't even think these 2 snakes can mate. they're 2 different GENERA, buddy. it's like a chimp and a gorilla making a baby: doesn't work. the differences between livebearing and egglaying also prevent a successful mating. i assume that you're very young so i can overlook the way you act, but there's no need to be an ***. we're all friends here.

[RedSidedSPR]

I feel stupid now. My dyslexia is really, really bad lately (dr tomorrow -.-) I didn't feel like reading it all -- thought this was just more about breeding. -____-

Damn. And yeah I know we're all friends I wasn't trying to be an ***.

I actually think housing them together would be fine and I have wanted to do it in the past. So let's try this again:

Thamnophis + Natrix = WHY THE FCK NOT

[aquamentus_11]

it's ok. i was actually really surprised to see the way you responded. knew there had to be a misunderstanding of some sort. :D

[RedSidedSPR]

i assume that you're very young so i can overlook the way you act, but there's no need to be an ***. we're all friends here.

The way I act.

[chris-uk]

I don't see a reason that they couldn't be kept together in single sex groups, in the same way that many of us keep single sex groups of mixed garter species together. Natrix and thamnophis have similar environmental requirements, and that is all that really matters when it comes to housing them together.
From an aesthetic perspective I'd probably keep natrix and thamnophis in separate vivs (when I eventually get some dice snakes) but if for any reason I found I needed to revise the space I was using I'd have no problem putting them together (subject to the single sex criteria).

[RedSidedSPR]

it's ok. i was actually really surprised to see the way you responded. knew there had to be a misunderstanding of some sort. :D

Yeah no doubt lol.. Dr tomorrow, maybe I'll know what the hell we're talking about from now on. >.<

[Stefan-A]

fcked

FCK

Quit it.

[PINJOHN]

I feel stupid now. My dyslexia is really, really bad lately (dr tomorrow -.-) I didn't feel like reading it all -- thought this was just more about breeding. -____-

Damn. And yeah I know we're all friends I wasn't trying to be an ***.

I actually think housing them together would be fine and I have wanted to do it in the past. So let's try this again:

Thamnophis + Natrix = WHY THE FCK NOT
I think there is nobody on the site with more enthusiasm than you and there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with the other members but maybe being so forceful with your opinion is not the way to go on some occasions, you have my sympathies with the dyslexia i suffer from the form which affects my abilities with numbers and things that come in sequential patterns...things like mobile phones and computers which explains my woeful skills with the PC:)

[RedSidedSPR]

Yeah. It's bad.


Quit it.

Damn it sorry. it's habit and I'm not trying to evade the filters my iPod auto corrects the word to that half a word
Sorry I'll stop

[guidofatherof5]

Yeah. It's bad.



Damn it sorry. it's habit and I'm not trying to evade the filters my iPod auto corrects the word to that half a word
Sorry I'll stop

That's an easy fix. Don't type/use those words. ;):)

[chris-uk]

Yeah. It's bad.



Damn it sorry. it's habit and I'm not trying to evade the filters my iPod auto corrects the word to that half a word
Sorry I'll stop
Just apply a sense-check filter before you hit the "post reply" button. You dyslexia doesn't stop you posting an intelligent reply, just pause, read back what you've written, and decide if anything you've said will cause offence or hack off a moderator, and does it makes sense in the context of the thread . Slow down. I'd hate to see you facing the wrath of Stefan and his faeces covered sword.

[RedSidedSPR]

I know Steve.. Lol it's like the first word I ever learned. I forget it's offensive sometimes. I won't use it.

And yeah I know. I don't think. I just type what I think and hit post. >.< ill stop.

Also I make my dyslexia sound like an excuse it's not. I can read lol. Just messes me up a lot...

[guidofatherof5]

I think you will do fine Jesse.

[RedSidedSPR]

Ima stop posting posting now cuz I'm starting to look beyond stupid... >_<

[guidofatherof5]

I think Chris's advice was very, very sound. Follow that advice and you'll do fine.

[aquamentus_11]

you're fine. the title of this thread was a bit misleading. it definitely could be taken for a cross.

[EasternGirl]

I just came on and wow...let me just say...Nate...very nice handling Jesse. Jesse, you're a sweet guy and we love ya, you just need to watch how you come off and think before you type...no need to stop posting....but I knew Stefan was going to get you for the bad language sooner or later. I was impressed that you took responsibility for yourself and apologized too, Jesse. See...this is a nice little thamily...way more functional than my actual family...which is why I spend so much time on here and avoiding the people I live with...(except for my son of course :)).

[aquamentus_11]

ha he didn't need to be "handled", we were on different pages that's all

[EasternGirl]

I guess what I meant to say was nice job handling that situation. Things were getting pretty heated and you basically said..."Hey, it's not cool to be rude to me" in a way that was not creating more of a problem. It diffused the situation. He apologized, you apologized and it was done. It was handled in a mature manner. I have seen situations where there were misunderstandings in forums and it can get ugly. So...it was handled nicely.

[aquamentus_11]

well, thank you. this really is a very mellow group on this site. usually there are the "gurus" who lord over everyone and act like everything anyone else is doing is wrong or stupid. stefan runs a tight ship.

[guidofatherof5]

well, thank you. this really is a very mellow group on this site. usually there are the "gurus" who lord over everyone and act like everything anyone else is doing is wrong or stupid. stefan runs a tight ship.

He does a good job. ;)

[EasternGirl]

We have a good group of people on here and good moderators. :)

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

Can you house garters and European grass snakes together?

I keep a number of different species of natrix and thamnophis and I would say a definate no. There from 2 different parts of the world and require different temps.

[PINJOHN]

I keep a number of different species of natrix and thamnophis and I would say a definate no. There from 2 different parts of the world and require different temps.
Hi John nice to hear from you ...don't be such a stranger...i was surprised to see your reply as although it is some years since i kept natrix in this case grassnakes, i always kept them in identical conditions to garters with no negative results, and i have always assumed that the geographical spread of the grassnake is mirrored climate wise by the garter snake, grassnakes occurring from the semi tropical south of Europe across to the frozen northern forest's of Russia,, which pretty much describes the range of the garter snake on the far side of the pond.

edit. the mating i referred to in the other thread between the grassake and the garter was actually between a German grassnake and an eastern garter whom i imagine would meet similar conditions in their wild state

[aquamentus_11]

I keep a number of different species of natrix and thamnophis and I would say a definate no. There from 2 different parts of the world and require different temps.

really? they sounded so similar to me. would you explain the differences?

[ConcinusMan]

I'm starting to look beyond stupid... >_<

Shame on you. I never do that. :rolleyes:

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I thought European grass snakes eat other snakes. No?

[PINJOHN]

forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I thought European grass snakes eat other snakes. No?
I have never heard that one before Richard or seen any literal reference to it happening .....but snakes being snakes i would hesitate to put absolutes in any statement about them, so the strongest i will go is highly unlikely.

[RedSidedSPR]

Shame on you. I never do that. :rolleyes:

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I thought European grass snakes eat other snakes. No?

I do it all the time. -__-

And yes. Yes they do. But I don't think that's a concern anymore then housing garters together.

[Sergey]

Grass snakes do not eat other snakes, but it can occasionally happen if they take otnovremenno a food item.

[RedSidedSPR]

Same as garters. I don't think they eat them, but they CAN eat them. Unlike garters, they can digest other snakes I believe, without dying themselves

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

Hi John nice to hear from you ...don't be such a stranger...i was surprised to see your reply as although it is some years since i kept natrix in this case grassnakes, i always kept them in identical conditions to garters with no negative results, and i have always assumed that the geographical spread of the grassnake is mirrored climate wise by the garter snake, grassnakes occurring from the semi tropical south of Europe across to the frozen northern forest's of Russia,, which pretty much describes the range of the garter snake on the far side of the pond.

edit. the mating i referred to in the other thread between the grassake and the garter was actually between a German grassnake and an eastern garter whom i imagine would meet similar conditions in their wild state

lol They need an iphone app like rfuk for this site. I use my phone more than the laptop.

Anyway, people may have done it back in the day with some good results but this does not mean its correct. So your saying it is ok to keep a florida blue in with a grass snake from europe ect. I have been to florida and its much hotter than germany,holland ect. I could understand people getting away with it maybe with garters from further north but not something I would do. I do keep single sex groups of different garters if there temps and humidity requirements are the same. There is also a risk of pathogens that either species can not deal with but this is yet unprovern. (sorry about any spelling mistakes in a rush) :confused:

[Stefan-A]

I use my phone more than the laptop.
I've used my phone about 5 times since the end of November and it's not a smart phone.

[guidofatherof5]

I've used my phone about 5 times since the end of November and it's not a smart phone.

Is that a Forrest Gump phone? :D

[Stefan-A]

Is that a Forrest Gump phone? :D
Yes.

[RedSidedSPR]

Those things are badass.

Not.

I use my iPod touch always. Cuz I can't freaking get on the computer hardly ever and don't have my own. *cries and sobs and wails and all that good stuff*

[PINJOHN]

lol They need an iphone app like rfuk for this site. I use my phone more than the laptop.

Anyway, people may have done it back in the day with some good results but this does not mean its correct. So your saying it is ok to keep a florida blue in with a grass snake from europe ect. I have been to florida and its much hotter than germany,holland ect. I could understand people getting away with it maybe with garters from further north but not something I would do. I do keep single sex groups of different garters if there temps and humidity requirements are the same. There is also a risk of pathogens that either species can not deal with but this is yet unprovern. (sorry about any spelling mistakes in a rush) :confused:
now now John you are using the extremes to argue your case, naughty boy, you didn't think i would let you pull that one did you :D.
Germany is a somewhat northern part of Europe while Florida is using up a large part of whats deemed as the southern USA.
I could go on to argue that the grassnakes range in Greece and Turkey mirror the temperatures in Florida, but that is getting away from the central point that garters and grassnakes inhabit an identical niche [or as close as other wise possible] under sunny southern to dark northen sky's.
My next argument is going to bring the whole of the thamnophis site down on my head but what the hell, i'v got broad shoulders [well i use to have] :o i have thought for a long time that this threat from these largely unidentified pathogens is trotted out just too often, if a thing is repeated often enough it takes on a validity which in all cases might not be warranted, I am fully aware of for instance the introduction of the north American grey squirrel to England being a total disaster for our native species of red squirrel because of a pox carried by the grey to which the red has no resistance, but here we are talking mammals a form of life given it seems to a susceptibility to pathogens.
At about this point my fellow members will be reaching either for their keyboard or their trusty sword smeared with dung from that unfortunate cross eyed baboon and i suppose nail bombs always remain an option but before that perhaps someone can dig out any reports on the devastating effects that the pathogens from all those African pythons have had on the denizens of the everglades, I see many many reports on the carnage wrought by their appetites, but non from pathogens from a snake which comes from the continent which has given us mankind's most terrifying infectious diseases.
I wonder if the terror of these pathogens stems from the devastation they have brought about in the amphibian world on creatures who are wholly dependent on their skins for functions which are dealt with differently in other creatures.
we have sadly all read about these diseases spreading through the tropical jungles wiping out or severely depleting the frog populations, but is there even one report of an injurious effect by these pathogens on the snakes which prey on the frogs.
i seem to have taken the grassnake garter snake topic in a new direction but what the hell should make for good debate ;)

[chris-uk]

I think the environmental conditions aspect is a consideration when housing any snakes together. That many garter species have such a large range makes it easy to put different species together, but I'd still shy away from putting garters together where their natural envionmental conditions varied greatly. What is significant is that the Canadian garters still operate in similar temps to Mexican garters, the difference being the months that they are active. That garters tend to be very adaptable helps keep them together. Similar story with natrix, for example I've read about a population of natrix tessalata living in Poland, when they are normally found further south so there's a adaptability in natrix as well. Whether all species of natrix and thamnophis could be safely kept together... I don't know, we'd have to consider each combination and decide.

Pathogen crossover between thamnophis and natrix is an unknown until someone produces the research that says that a virus/bacteria/other pathogen commonly and harmlessly carried in one genera has ill effects on the other. There's two ways to approach an unknown risk, either assume it is a high risk until proven safe, or assume it is not a risk until it proves otherwise. As with many things we make a risk assessment and decide how to react based on our perception of the risk.

[aquamentus_11]

i like it. i personally think that housing them together sounds fine; i have a T.s.parietalis and it doesn't get much more northern than that. i would go as far as to say that housing different genders of the two snakes would also be fine. they can't mate, they're from different genera. i could see a male putting the moves on the female, but nothing would come of it. the possible downsides would be the male not eating (they sound like they tend not to once they're in the mood), frustration and a need for sex counseling. if they don't eat each other, don't mate with each other, eat the same things and like the same environment it actually sounds like a non-breeder's dream. pathogens are another possibility. go cb.

that being said, i personally would not house two different genders together just because of the way females can put a male off feeding.

[guidofatherof5]

"An once of prevention is worth a pound of cure"
Just seems the place for that quote.

I think being over cautious in many respects is a good thing.
My quarantine procedure might be looked at that way but it doesn't hurt to be over cautious considering the possible consequences of not being.
Just my opinion.

[PINJOHN]

I think the environmental conditions aspect is a consideration when housing any snakes together. That many garter species have such a large range makes it easy to put different species together, but I'd still shy away from putting garters together where their natural envionmental conditions varied greatly. What is significant is that the Canadian garters still operate in similar temps to Mexican garters, the difference being the months that they are active. That garters tend to be very adaptable helps keep them together. Similar story with natrix, for example I've read about a population of natrix tessalata living in Poland, when they are normally found further south so there's a adaptability in natrix as well. Whether all species of natrix and thamnophis could be safely kept together... I don't know, we'd have to consider each combination and decide.

Pathogen crossover between thamnophis and natrix is an unknown until someone produces the research that says that a virus/bacteria/other pathogen commonly and harmlessly carried in one genera has ill effects on the other. There's two ways to approach an unknown risk, either assume it is a high risk until proven safe, or assume it is not a risk until it proves otherwise. As with many things we make a risk assessment and decide how to react based on our perception of the risk.
OK then Chris based on my personal experience of keeping these snakes together, i deem it to be risk free there you go i have said it and it is of course just my opinion ....and i don't seem to have aquatically explained that when mixing the two then i am referring to snakes of comparable latitudes not to one from each extreme, i honestly thought that was a given but people keep coming back to the extreme position.

[chris-uk]

Valid opinion John.

[PINJOHN]

Valid opinion John.
that's no bloody help at all, you are supposed to argue :D

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

that's no bloody help at all, you are supposed to argue :D

Lol I take it your only after an argument! I'll leave it there then. Everyone has there point of view and fair play but your way is definitley not mine.

[PINJOHN]

Lol I take it your only after an argument! I'll leave it there then. Everyone has there point of view and fair play but your way is definitley not mine.
To be serious john i have no inclination towards keeping the two species together i have been there and done that with no negative effects i am just arguing against the point that this cant or shouldn't be done.
going back over many years i have made mistakes for which the poor snakes have payed the price, one of those being that i wanted to give my garters the most naturalistic setup i could devise, my logic was garters being a damp, marshy, water, loving creature then they should be given a setup consisting mainly of water, whereby they ended up predictably with the blister disease now when i say predictably that would be now not then, as there was nowhere that i was aware of to get this knowledge if fact i am sure that there was some old books that recommended this course of action and it's possible i have one in my collection somewhere, but of any negative results brought about by me with the snakes, keeping these two together wasn't one of them.

[ConcinusMan]

Valid opinion John.

Every opinion is valid. Doesn't mean it's fact or even based on fact, that's why it's called an opinion.:D

So here's mine...

It probably wouldn't hurt a thing to keep them together short term during their active season. Personally, I would keep them separate. Natrix family in one enclosure, north american garters in another. I would tend to give my garters a longer warm season. Sounds like grass snakes are adapted to a short warm season and a generally cooler climate.