Why is my Eden still little?

[Alicia_kay_47]

Eden is my checkered garter that is wild caught from a friends yard. He was pretty small (6 in) when I got him in August 2011. I've had one other garter at age 12, his name was Alice, and he lived a full, healthy life on Earth worms. My snake Eden eats Earth worms, but since he is so tiny, I don't know how much to feed him. It is now febuary and he hasn't gotten the size I think he should be. I mean, he has grown longer and a bit wider, but not by much. He doesn't seem sick or anything, and he had his first shed this week. (So proud!) I feed him once a week....sometimes once every two weeks. If this is not enough, keep in mind I am not an ignorant monster, my last snake went just fine with that, so I don't have much to go off of which is why I am here. Also, can he eat wax worms, grubs, or spikes? He doesn't like them, but is it safe? I know this should have gone in the food section, but it pertains to a couple other things as well. Like...is it physically necessary for him to go through hibranation? I wasn't sure how to replicate hybrination seeing as how his home is nice and cozy with his hidey-hole/heat lamp. Um...why doesn't he like me yet? My last snake literally felt like he was in love with me, as he escaped several times, even got outside, but never went where I couldn't find him because he didn't want to leave home, just explore. And he never,ever bit me. But Eden hates being picked up, bites anyone he sees, and sometimes I feel cruel for just not letting him free. Will he warm up to me over time?Wow, lots of questions...

[EasternGirl]

Okay...well, first of all...if he was 6 inches when you found him...then I am guessing...just guessing, mind you...that he was less than 4 mos old. I'm basing that on my albino checkered who was four mos when I got him and probably 8 inches. But again, I'm guessing. So, let's assume he is now about 10 mos old...less than a year...and how big is he now? Babies need to eat more than adults..and I feed my adults more than you are feeding this little guy. Babies need to eat every 2-3 days. I feed my adults every 4-5 days...although they could survive up to a month without food...and many people feed once every 7-10 days. But babies need to be fed a lot because they are growing. If he is only eating worms, I would be giving him half a worm every 2 days. But I also always recommend feeding a varied diet of pinkies and fish fillet in addition to worms if you can. He cannot eat wax worms or grubs...I don't know what a spike is but I know that nightcrawlers are the only safe worms I am aware of. It is not physically necessary for him to go through brumation (hibernation). Some wild caught snakes do not adjust to captivity well. If he hasn't adjusted to you in 6 mos, I don't know if he will. He could still warm up to you. Instead of trying to pick him up, take it slower with him. Try putting your hand in his enclosure and letting him get used to the idea of you, of your scent. Let him come to you. Little steps. With skiddish snakes it sometimes takes a while and you have to let them get used to you in very small steps. I have two wild caught easterns who still do not like to be held...I have had one for over a year and one for 10 mos...and they are just now to the point in which they do not flee when I put my hand in the enclosure. But they do trust me a bit more each day...as long as I take things at their pace.

[ConcinusMan]

Where's this friend's yard located? Are you sure this is a checkered? I say this because if it was found in MI, it's not a checkered. Most likely it's an eastern garter with a checker pattern. Checkered garters are native to the Southwestern U.S. in arid to semi-arid climates.

If this is a small and young snake, once a week feeding of worms is hardly adequate so growth would be very slow. If you're feeding it just worms then feed it every day, or nearly every day.

If this really is a "baby" checkered, they grow best when fed chopped pinky mice at least 3 times a week, and kept warm (80's). They should about double in size in their first 6 months and double again by 1 year old but that varies.

If it's a wild caught snake that is not eating well or growing fast, and remains nervous, then it probably just isn't adapting well or the environment isn't right. Some WC snakes just won't adapt well and should be released.

[chris-uk]

Am I the only person to have read that this snake is a baby and has only just shed for the first time since August? And to think that something isn't right? Even our Bethan with her spinal problem, lack of eating, and two retained sheds (possibly a third retained this week), has shed more frequently.

You said it hasnt grown as large as you think it should have, but can you tell us how long and how much it does weigh so we have some idea as to whether it's growing normally based on the wide ranging experience of keepers here. One checkered we gave to friends was born on 2 August and was 45cm and I think 35g by Christmas - she ate well twice a week.

As has been said already, feeding and baby worms every one or two weeks isn't enough, and will be one reason why it isn't growing quickly.

[ConcinusMan]

Am I the only person to have read that this snake is a baby and has only just shed for the first time since August? And to think that something isn't right?

No, you're not. Something is wrong, and I think that Alicia knows it too, or she wouldn't have asked.:cool:

[EasternGirl]

Yes...good catch, Chris. I didn't notice she said first shed the first time I read that. That is odd. I have had Hermes since he was 4 mos...end of November...and he has shed twice for me already. I do think the small size could be attributed to the small amount of food...but I am also interested to know the actual size of the snake. Pics would be great. Also...has sex been confirmed?

[Alicia_kay_47]

Thank you so much for the help! He is growing, I have not starved him, but now I can give him adequate nutrition now that I know to expand his diet/ get calcium in him. To Chris UK, I never have had a garter shed that much. But both mine were wc and kept in captivity, so maybe that is why...mind they were both in very healthy condition. I think the whole me not feeding enough may have been due to a fear of over-feeding and causing harm, but I'm glad he hasn't been deprived of health due to my lack of know-how. Thank you to all.

[Alicia_kay_47]

I call Eden a him. He just seems like a boy...Stubborn, bossy. I bet I'm wrong. Hah! And I've had him for about four months, and who knows..he may have shed before I got him. So, if you've had your snake for four months, and he shed twice, mine sheddiong once doesn't freak me out. He was a wee wee little baby when I got him. Maybe 6 in was a bad guestimate. I post pics tomorrow. Thank you!

[Alicia_kay_47]

"Something is wrong and I think Alicia knows it too or she would have asked". Erm...he's not sick or dying. Just a little mal-nurished. If I knew something was wrong ..I'd take him to my vet, not sit on the computer asking questions,lol. He is fine...just a little stunted. Keep in mind he was very very small when I got him. Gosh, now I NEED to post pics. He's healthy enough, just needs a few square meals and some advi for his silly owner.

[ConcinusMan]

Sounds like Eden was probably just born late last summer. A well growing baby garter will shed at least every 5-6 weeks, sometimes more often, and will eat every day or about every other day. A change in diet and/or environment / feeding frequency is probably in order, but some baby snakes just fail to thrive for no apparent reason.

[kibakiba]

If he's malnourished, then give him more food and stop causing him to be malnourished. Try pinkies mixed in worm slime or blood.

[chris-uk]

I've not been keeping garters for long, but having 4 checkered babies and being a bit obsessive about recording shed dates, weights and such like, gives me a pretty good idea as to how varied the growth can be over the first 6 months. However all our checkered babies have shed on average once a month, shortest time between sheds was 16 days for one of them (that one then went 40 days). But the average time between sheds for our checkered girls is around 30 days. So August to February without a shed does seem very strange to me.
They will slow down as they get older and growth rates slow but as a baby you'd expect frequent sheds.

[ConcinusMan]

I wrote a little bit about baby garter care in the care sheets, near the bottom under "Breeding". You should read it. Garter Snake Forum - Garter Caresheet (http://www.thamnophis.com/index.php?page=caresheet)

If your snake is otherwise healthy, you can probably turn it around and get it growing better by feeding more often and feeding it something besides worms.

I wouldn't get too worried just yet. The snake is eating and that's good. Baby garters are often forced to brumate shortly after birth, and do not resume growth until the following spring, provided that they survive the winter. There's a good chance you can get him growing well soon.

[Alicia_kay_47]

I'm hoping once everything changes for the better he will thrive. I mean, the shedding issue is a bit worrysome, specially since his shed comes off in pieces, an my old snake's came off in one whole piece. But, he is wild, so maybe lack of proper diet/change in habitat freaked him out into not being a normal snake. If I have a hurtful and unexpected occurance, I believe I will make my next choice CB so that I can be more sure of their health.

[Alicia_kay_47]

Hey, I think your right...He wont get growing good until spring. He ..well, he just seems very on the up and up. I can't wait for you guys to see him and give opinions. I'd do it now, but I have 0 access to a camera at the mo'. But I'm super excited to finally find out what he is. He looks so cool.

[ConcinusMan]

I'm hoping once everything changes for the better he will thrive. I mean, the shedding issue is a bit worrysome, specially since his shed comes off in pieces.

That is concerning. Especially if he doesn't get all the skin off. Failure to shed causes constriction, which is usually fatal or results in loss of the tail. Coming off in pieces can indicate poor health or can be caused by improper environmental conditions. Poor nutrition can also cause the skin to be very thin, resulting in a shed that doesn't come off in one piece.

[Alicia_kay_47]

Do snakes like to hide/get cranky when they shed..(Like..maybe,how pms is for woman? LOL )

[ConcinusMan]

Definitely

[Alicia_kay_47]

Damnit.Well, it IS coming off. Just not how it's supposed to. .....Hmmm. Who knows. Only time will tell.

[Alicia_kay_47]

Well, he has had many changes to his environment too, new food, new lamp. AND he's wild and was caught and put into an aquarium with some girl that picks him up and holds him. Pretty stressful all around.

[ConcinusMan]

Moisture can help. Misting or a lukewarm soak can't hurt. Heat sources tend to dry the air too much. I would avoid handling any baby snake for the most part. The less stress, the better. Excessive handling (or improper handling technique) can even kill them.

[chris-uk]

They tend to hide during the run up to a shed, especially in the "blue phase" - understandable when their eyes are cloudy and they can't see well.
They are also all individuals, some eat all the way through a shed and others refuse food for a week or so before the shed happens. One of our checkereds will continue to eat even when her eyes are blue. Our albino checkered will burrow into the substrate all through a shed, and we'll only see her if we happen to rumage in the substrate to find her.
Increase the feeding, keep the temps and humidity in the right range, and you should start to see how this individual behaves.

As for the bad shed, do a quick search for "shed box", Steve posted a good video (several times in different threads) about shed boxes and what to do with a bad shed.

[Mommy2many]

Good luck with Eden. Sounds like you are doing everything you should. All snakes are not the same and if you are feeding properly and housing properly, then that is all you can do.

[aquamentus_11]

do you have a hygrometer and thermometer in there? i'm from MI and I know in the winter when we run our heat, it gets dry. go out and get a combo hygrometer/thermometer with a probe (walmart has them) if you don't already have one. the garters that we have in MI can tend to like cooler temps than more southerly spp., but a basking spot of approx. 85-90 is needed for digestion (sorry if you already know all of this). humidity should run between 40 and 60%, but i keep it around 70% when they're shedding. spray the foliage down every morning and cover half the lid with a towel (i use cork board). careful not to soak it, you don't want standing water or Eden will get blisters. what sort of substrate do you use? switching over to a bark blend (non-pine or cedar) really made a difference for me: i used to have a lot of probs with humidity.

take some pics of his? vent and tail base so we can help sex the little guy. sounds to me like you just need to feed more often and keep humidity up. toss in some fish or mouse meat once in awhile too. i hear pinkies really help pack on weight and size.

[aquamentus_11]

lots of more experienced people replied before i finished....just listen to them

[ConcinusMan]

One more thing, you mentioned the snake escaped before. Without a proper reptile screen top, a baby garter can get itself damp and use surface tension to crawl right up the glass like spiderman, especially if you mist the tank. Doesn't matter if the snake is only 6 inches and the tank is 3 feet tall. They can still get out.

[Mommy2many]

One more thing, you mentioned the snake escaped before. Without a proper reptile screen top, a baby garter can get itself damp and use surface tension to crawl right up the glass like spiderman, especially if you mist the tank. Doesn't matter if the snake is only 6 inches and the tank is 3 feet tall. They can still get out.

I have personally had "sticky snakes" before. Sneaky little things. Spider snake...spider snake...

[EasternGirl]

Yes...I got to see that in action for the first time with Hermes recently...he went in his water dish and then shimmied up the side of the tank...it was pretty fascinating to watch...and the very reason I got the slid-lock lid that I did for him!

I didn't know that handling babies too much or handling them improperly could kill them...could you expand on this please, Richard?

[aquamentus_11]

i think he means crushing their ribs = death and handling can stress them out and then they don't eat.....believe me

[EasternGirl]

I handle Hermes...but not a lot...and he is a little pig!

[kibakiba]

But not all snakes are like that, you have to remember. Runt was impossible to feed when I first got her. It took not holding her for a loooong time just to get her to eat under her hide.

[EasternGirl]

Oh no...you're absolutely right, Chantel. I still have to feed Seeley under his hide with a towel over his tank...if I can get him to eat at all. And both Cee Cee and Seeley do not like to be held still. Hermes is not thrilled about being held yet...and I try not to handle him too much because I don't want to stress him.

[tress29]

Where's this friend's yard located? Are you sure this is a checkered? I say this because if it was found in MI, it's not a checkered. Most likely it's an eastern garter with a checker pattern.
My erythristic eastern has a very checkerdy pattern. He's also very small. He seems to have grown in length but is still not very girthy!

[Selkielass]

Hello!
I'm from Michigan also, but I'm on the eastern side, over near Detroit.
Getting a little snake thru winter can be hard- they are more sensitive to low humidity than adults. Less light and lower temperatures can also make them slow down a bit.
Make sure temperatures in the cage are 70 to 80 degrees, but his light on a timer and make sure he is getting at *least* as many hours as there is daylight outside, and offer food more often.

I have a little guy who I'm feeding every other day- every day if all he eats is a worm and is looking for more the next day.
Take a night crawler (Small if your source offers a size choice.) and cut it into 1/2 inch pieces with small scissors or a knife. Serve up in a large, shallow bottle cap Like gatoraid) with a few drops of water added to keep the bits nice and moist.
He will probably gobble the whole thing down and be left with a nice bulge in his middle section.
When he poops and the bulge has subsided, he will probably be ready to eat again.
Exactly how soon depends on tank temperature, metabolism, etc.
Just watch for him to lose the bulge and start hunting again.

Where was the back yard where you caught him?
If in Grand Rapids, you probably have a young Eastern Garter.
If caught elswhere in Michigan, you may have a young Butlers garter, but these are concentrated on the east side of the state in my area. They stay small. Males around 15 inches, females 20 or so.
If he starts eating 2-3 times a week and you have good temperatures and humidity, he could reach 12 inches (or more) by the time summer is out. My young ones shed every 2-3 weeks while in their fist year growth spurt, then slow down.

If he is eating regularly, but not growing, consider finding a vet that will do a fecal float to test for parasites.

He will probably also enjoy fish and pinky mice. Guppies are good, and so is cut up salmon and tilapia. Frozen fish and/or mice can be mixed with cut up worms to increase calcium and vitamins. offer bits of food not much larger around than the thickest part of his body.

If he is a male, he is never going to get really large. 20 inches or a bit more. Michigan Eastern females can easily get over 30 inches after a couple years of good living in captivity. My Abby is over 30 inches long and still growing, although much more slowly. I believe she is around 3 years old now. (1 year wild, 2 years as a pet.)

[EasternGirl]

I'm in Delaware and both of my easterns are wild caught. My eastern male also has a very checkered pattern. He is probably around 2 years old and about 2 1/2 feet long...but very small in diameter. My eastern female is almost 3 feet long. She is much bigger in diameter. I have no idea how old she is.

[ConcinusMan]

I didn't know that handling babies too much or handling them improperly could kill them...could you expand on this please, Richard?

They're delicate. It's very easy to injure them by improper handling, especially if you try to restrain them. It's a very critical time in their development. Too much handling, causing extreme stress, can kill them, just from the stress alone. Stress kills if it goes on too long. I've seen it happen. Young boy finds small garter snake. Handles it constantly, day after day. Snake drops dead.

[mikem]

yep, i've seen it happen too. stress kills everything, even us humans.

[EasternGirl]

Ain't that the truth...

[RedSidedSPR]

Now cue a discussion about the proper term for male genitals. Cuz that's how we do what we do

[EasternGirl]

You can't say the proper term on here...it gets bleeped out!

[RedSidedSPR]

*****

[RedSidedSPR]

Interesting.

[Selkielass]

They're delicate. It's very easy to injure them by improper handling, especially if you try to restrain them. It's a very critical time in their development. Too much handling, causing extreme stress, can kill them, just from the stress alone. Stress kills if it goes on too long. I've seen it happen. Young boy finds small garter snake. Handles it constantly, day after day. Snake drops dead.

Very true. I've got a little Butler I call "micro' who seems quite vulnerable to stress. s/he freaks out every time s/he is handled and thrashes so violently trying to escape that I have several times, despite trying to be very careful, caught hir only by the tail tip and injured it. It was also quite intimidated by the presence of other Butlers, and wasn't eating enough to gain weight.

Since being placed in 'solitary' micro is doing much better, weight wise, but picking hir up to clean out the viv is always risky for the first few minutes, what with the attempts to bolt and me trying not to squeeze this little 4g whippersnapper too hard. Unless I see a strong change in attitude, Mike may well be released to the wild next summer.

[snakehill]

vagina is allowed! What's up with that? :p

[RedSidedSPR]

Tf

[EasternGirl]

Gotta love this forum.

[ConcinusMan]

vagina is allowed! What's up with that? :p

Not the way I say it... **** :rolleyes: :p

Wow... way off topic