he-ribbon or she-ribbon?

[aquamentus_11]

This snake was so gorgeous that I thought it needed its own thread. Tried to get some vent shots for people. I think it's a female given the post-vent taper.

she's got gorgeous colors and her eyes are almost red

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01186-20120219-1324.jpg

you can really see how grey-green she is. she has a peach color on her cheeks and chin too

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01169-20120219-1315.jpg

you can really see the peach in this one. i hope she retains that throughout her life. she stayed like this for the majority of the photo shoot btw. head cocked sideways and tail just dangling free. i've never seen anything like it.

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01177-20120219-1321.jpg

ok from here on out are the business pics. i say female. expert panel?

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01189-20120219-1325.jpg
http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01185-20120219-1323.jpg
http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01183-20120219-1323.jpg




whatever i decide, she needs to get out of there quickly: her cagemate has mites under 2 of his ventral scales (which I pointed out to the owner, but she said it was an injury). how do you treat a snake for mites? i looked at her and didn't see any, thankfully.

[aquamentus_11]

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01173-20120219-1318.jpg
http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01178-20120219-1321.jpg
http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01182-20120219-1322.jpg

[aquamentus_11]

her tail is not pinned under that rock so that i can stretch her out btw. she is gripping on to it to help me

[EasternGirl]

I think it's a she...but I'm not positive. I think she's playing dead...some garters do that as a defense when they are scared. You have to make absolute sure she does not have mites, Nate. Mites are so hard to get rid of...they are horrible. There is stuff to treat them but it is very toxic stuff and if used improperly...even in the slightest way...it can harm the snake. Take a paper towel, wet it and run it over her...look to see if you see black spots on the towel...you can usually see them moving around.

[EasternGirl]

She is gorgeous by the way...cutest eyes!

[aquamentus_11]

i hear mites tend to go under the chin and ventral scales. i didn't see any.

[Selkielass]

Womderful eyes! s/he looks like a cartoon. (No Idea if its a he or she. I'm still learning.)

[aquamentus_11]

what about that zoo-med mite stuff? says it doesn't affect vertebrates

[aquamentus_11]

yeah, the black ring around them really makes them stand out. i read a bit about getting rid of mites (if i get her, i'll be doing this regardless of whether i see any or not). it seems like the hardest and only dangerous part is treating an infested cage. for the snake itself, it sounds like you put her in a plastic tub, spray her with the solution, let it sit for 20min, rinse, then let the snake sit in shallow water for half an hour to prevent dehydration.

[guidofatherof5]

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/9493-provent-mite-usage.html (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/9493-provent-mite-usage.html)

[aquamentus_11]

hmm i ordered a heat panel from them and have the pamphlet about provent a mite they sent. i was under the impression that it was only for the enclosure, not the mite son the snake.

[aquamentus_11]

btw, do you think boy or girl, steve?

[guidofatherof5]

Yes the product is for the enclosure which is where the mites are born and live.
There are other things that can be done to remove the mites from the snake.
It's the enclosure that is the problem. The microscopic newborn mites are killed long before they ever get on the snake.

[aquamentus_11]

ok, so what about for a new snake with possible mites that will be coming to a brand new, miteless cage? i would think treating the snake for the existing mites before allowing it into the cage would work in that case.

[guidofatherof5]

It only takes one missed mite to cause an infestation a few weeks later. Then you have the entire area to treat.
Since using Provent- A -Mite I haven't seen a single mite in almost over 2 years.
The first thing I would ascertain is whether or not the snake even has mites.

[aquamentus_11]

even before that, i need to make sure that it's actually a girl, but the wet paper towel will reveal mites for sure?

[guidofatherof5]

even before that, i need to make sure that it's actually a girl, but the wet paper towel will reveal mites for sure?

As a rule that would be a correct statement but sometimes it just takes observations.
This being a ribbon snake means excessive soaking/water time might be more normal then a clue that mites are present.
Black specks in the water bowl or actual mites on the snake are something to look for. The black specks will show black or even red when smashed and smirred on a white paper towel.
Under the chin, around the eyes, under and around the anal plate area. These are all areas to look for mites.
Excessive rubbing against the substrate is a possible sign of mites.

What makes you think these snakes have mites?

[aquamentus_11]

the larger snake that she(?) is in with had a couple ventral scales that were raised and looked injured. i looked closer and saw dark masses packed in underneath each scale. i lifted the scales up to see a little bit better and came away with a perfectly round/oval black speck on my finger. the owner was right there through it all and said it was an injury. i just put the snake back and washed my hands.

[aquamentus_11]

i didn't see anything like that on the little one.

[EasternGirl]

Did the speck move?...mites usually move...you see them crawl around.

[aquamentus_11]

no i didnt see it move

[aquamentus_11]

could really use some feedback on the gender of this snake, all you more experienced owners

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...I said female...but I'm not positive...could someone confirm that for me?

[guidofatherof5]

I would say female.
I see a taper start at the 4th scale. Usually the hemipenis pouch is longer(more scales).

With all that being said. I haven't sexed many ribbon snakes.

Beautiful snake by the way.;)

[aquamentus_11]

i can't say thanks because she's not mine, but i agree. he/she's about 1.5 feet long so I assume old enough to be sexed by sight. the mitey snake i would call a male and has the continuing thickness so i think we're right on this. if i do get her, i will be in the dog house possibly forever. might be worth it.

[EasternGirl]

Get a really big, big snake enclosure and just live with your snakes. :D

[snakehill]

JUST DO IT! She'll get over it! Although my ex didn't speak to me for 3 months after I got my Cockatoo! :p Actually I enjoyed it now that I think about it! :rolleyes:

[kimbosaur]

I vote for not mentioning it and then just doing a "What?? I always had two! She's been in there since the start!" sort of a thing when she does notice. :)

[EasternGirl]

No...no...do this...just say "Oh my god! Hydra had a baby! I can't believe it...I looked in the tank and there it was...my friends on the forum told me it was very important to put it in another tank right away so that she doesn't eat the baby...animals do that you know..." Wow...I'm way too good at lying. I should be a spy.

[kimbosaur]

OR, just do a

"The poor little thing was getting mauled by jumbo snake-eating crickets at the pet store [insert sad puppy face]"

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...for real!

[aquamentus_11]

i got her :Doh, by the way. had the owner look at the other ribbon with me for mites. wasn't mites. so that's good.

[EasternGirl]

Well....we need pics Nate! Pronto! Congrats! Now you have to start figuring out a name again... And finding a new place to live...ha ha. My guinea pigs have a big new home you can share with them :D.

[aquamentus_11]

she's fishing already! she's been home for 15min and she's eating. i have polar opposite snakes

[aquamentus_11]

her name is Scylla (sea monster). she's taking f/t salmon filet like it's going out of style. I need to get her in with Hydra asap to show her how it's done!

[EasternGirl]

That is so awesome Nate! The poor thing was probably starving. Scylla is an awesome name too. Stick with the quarantine. Put their tanks side by side if you have room so that Hydra can see Scylla and observe what she is doing. Just make sure that you wash your hands thoroughly after holding Scylla and before touching Hydra or any of her things.

[aquamentus_11]

gotcha

[aquamentus_11]

no pics for a few days: she has monster bulge going on and i don't her to puke when i pick her up. she saw the cat who came in because i was feeding salmon and i saw the other side of ribbons.....she almost hit the ceiling.

[EasternGirl]

Poor thing. Lol...

[aquamentus_11]

2 more guppies down the hole. it's so nice to have a snake that eats. it helps to know that it's not me doing something wrong.

[EasternGirl]

I always knew it wasn't you, Nate. Some snakes just give you a difficult time at first. Hydra will come around. :)

[EasternGirl]

Btw...be careful not to overfeed the new snake...:)

[aquamentus_11]

was thinking no more food til the weekend then we'll try some pinky

[aquamentus_11]

so, i took Scylla back yesterday because I found mites on her and now I'm torn. I REALLY liked her, but she was a potential threat to Hydra and the rest of my home. She and her cagemate were sprayed down yesterday and put in a different cage that had never had mites. If I could be sure that she was mite-free, I would go back for her. The only way that I will trust that's she mite-free is if I am the one doing the spraying ;) Steve suggested Provent A Mite to treat the cage, but I'll have a new cage that won't have had any exposure to mites (Pro Products is a great business, btw. One of the guys there, Bob, took an hour out of his day to explain his products to me over the phone and shoot the breeze about herps. I recommend them, just be careful with the pesticide as I hear it's very very toxic if used improperly.) Rid was also recommended, but that was to treat the cage/substrate too, even though it will also have secondary effects on the snake. What I need is a product to treat the snake herself. What would people recommend?

[aquamentus_11]

I'm such a wimp, can't even stick to my decision to get rid of her for a whole day.....don't look at me

[guidofatherof5]

Treating the snake isn't good enough. This is why treating the enclosure is paramount.
The mites will spend time on the snake (for it's blood meal) but the eggs will be laid in the substrate.
This is why Provent-A-Mite is so effective. Even if you miss a mite on the snake it will be killed once it drops to the substrate.
In my opinion any chemicals put on a snake puts the snake at risk.
Doing a visual inspection and wiping the snake down will remove many of the mites and doesn't put the snake at a great risk.
By treating the enclosure you also prevent the mites from spreading to other areas only to return to the snake later.
Just my opinion.

[kimbosaur]

I'm such a wimp, can't even stick to my decision to get rid of her for a whole day.....don't look at me

Soooooooo...she's back?! :D

[aquamentus_11]

i definitely agree, but the snake won't be in any substrate until after i treat her for mites. she's at the store right now and she will be coming to a brand new cage. i'm bringing her home and treating her, then when she's mite-free she'll go into a tank that has never seen mites. so, you're saying to treat her, then treat her new, clean substrate. seems very thorough (which i like). how long does a spray-on treatment for the snake itself take to kill mites? if it takes awhile, then i can understand treating the substrate, too. i'll probably keep her on paper towel for a week or two now.

[aquamentus_11]

Soooooooo...she's back?! :D

after class, so this afternoon sometime.

[Selkielass]

Mites can be a pain to get rid of if you mess around with Human lice treatments and other herbal and detergent based substances.
The human medications can also be risky- especially with small snakes.

I have heard nothing but good things about pro-vent, so long it as used carefully, and according to package instructions- the enclosure must be completely dry before furnishings and snake are returned to it.

I like Repti-meds clove and detergent based mite treatment for cleaning my aquariums and wiping down my snakes when they need to look and smell their best, but I use it as a cleaner and mite repellant. I doubt it would be very effective against an actual infestation.

She sounds like a wonderful animal- well worth the investment in a safe and effective treatment in my opinion.

[aquamentus_11]

i read about a dilute betadine solution being used as a rinse and bath. sounds like this treatment relies on drowning the mites and using the betadine to disinfect the bites. i'm not sure how truly effective this would be. i agree that she is worth the time and effort for effective treatment, but i can't assured that any treatment will be guaranteed to completely clear the infestation. if i could be assured of completely curing her, i would bring her back.

[Selkielass]

Betadine is certainly effective for scale rot and injuries, but I don't know about its effectiveness for mites.
Mites are mobile, and spend part of their life cycle moving around invisibly- you only see them when they get on to the snake and feed.
Effective treatments kill the mites that are moving around, and wipe out mites before they return and latch on to your reptile.

Treatments that turn the cage into an effective barrier break the reproductive cycle and wipe out the mite population. Pro-vent is sprayed on the glass and any mite crossing the glass dies. End of mites.
Other pesticides may do the same thing (Rid ex etc.) but I doubt their safety for the snake.
Pesticides are far more dangerous to smaller creatures than large ones. its all a matter of body mass.
Pesticides designed for humans are hard to scale down to a dosage appropriate for tiny snakes.

[aquamentus_11]

hmmm the problem is waiting untilt he provent gets here

[EasternGirl]

Well, if you know you are going to treat when it gets there...you could bring her home and put her in a temporary enclosure, a plastic tub/container of some sort, in a room away from Hydra...and do not have contact with her until it gets there. I do not believe that the mites on snakes can live on humans. But I don't know for sure. If she stays in an enclosure that is sealed, I doubt the mites would get out and into your house though. If you needed to feed her before it got there, you could probably use gloves and open the enclosure to put food in...I doubt the mites would jump out...can anyone comment on this?

[guidofatherof5]

Mites will attach to anything as a way to spread. Gloves or whatever.
They must be treated as if they are a plague.

[aquamentus_11]

yeah....this is why i haven't gone back for her. would you guys subject your healthy snakes to that risk?

[aquamentus_11]

i feel like i'm doing the wrong thing and taking the easy way out with this one, but the gf is immovable now despite the contract we drew up lol

[EasternGirl]

Honestly, if I already had the snake...I would not take it back. I would deal with whatever the problem was. My other snakes would have already been possibly exposed to the mites. I would just treat the snake, treat my other snakes. Sorry...but you asked. Just being honest. :o

[aquamentus_11]

no need to apologize. i'm calling my vet friend tomorrow to allay/affirm things and to get another opinion. it sounded to me like mites were a huge deal (still does) and i reacted the best way i knew at the time.

[EasternGirl]

They are a big deal. I mean they are not easy to get rid of from what I have heard. I would hate to have to deal with them. And I do understand you wanting to protect Hydra, I do. Everyone deals with things in their own way. You did what you thought was best.

[aquamentus_11]

I ordered some Provent A Mite and some Natural Chemistry mite spray.

[guidofatherof5]

That should cover all the bases you wanted.
Did you read my thread about Provent-A-Mite?
If not here's a link. http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/9493-provent-mite-usage.html

[aquamentus_11]

yeah, i did. that's what made me decide to try it.

[guidofatherof5]

Be sure to left it dry and dry again. ;)

[aquamentus_11]

yes, no dead snakes. only mites

[aquamentus_11]

It may appear that the fight for Scylla is over, but tactics have merely changed. I shall prevail mwahahahaaaaa

[EasternGirl]

You crack me up. What...are you going to disguise her and tell your gf that you bought her a puppy? :p

[aquamentus_11]

kgb

[EasternGirl]

Lol...

[aquamentus_11]

the thought of this snake stuck in that pet store in a cage full of crickets won't leave me alone. i should've kept her. i'd have her back now if not for the mites: i need a way to be sure that they're all dead and to prove it. my young lady says no mites in the house because the thought of them getting into clothing, etc. creeps her out and i don't blame her. i've explained that i have the means to get rid of them completely, but she doesn't believe it and thinks there will always be a chance that they will come back. any ideas of things i can tell her to alleviate doubts and fears? telling me to suck it up and be a man is acceptable as long as you also include some real advice.

[katach]

Better to ask forgiveness than permission.... Just do it.