Opistoglyphs

[adamanteus]

Hi All,

Anybody interested enough to want to discuss the potency of venom in opistoglyphous snakes?

In the UK we have the "Dangerous Wild Animals Act", which controls the keeping of animals which pose a threat to humans. As far as snakes are concerned it covers all the proteroglyphs, all the solenoglyphs and certain named opistoglyphs...this is where it falls down....the list of controlled opistoglyphs seems (to me) to be random or at best based on rumour, outdated research or simply on snake size.

Let me explain what I mean. Obviously, the Boomslang (Dispholidus typus) and the Twig Snake (Thelotornis capensis) are listed, and rightly so. But also listed are the Montpellier Snake (Malpolon monspessulanus) and the Mangrove Snake (Boiga dendrophila). I have kept Mangrove Snakes in the past, I have been bitten (and indeed chewed) by this species and suffered no ill effects. I have also kept the Cat-Eyed Snake (Boiga cyanea), which is not considered dangerous. (Incidentally, I also had the first UK captive breeding of this species!) Mangrove Snakes, being arboreal, strike and seize their prey from above, this strike is normally followed by immediate constriction (in the case of rodent prey). So the prey is killed/subdued by a combination of envenomation and constriction. However, in the Cat-Eyed Snake the same capture method is employed, but constriction rarely follows, as envenomation appears to be sufficient. I have timed the feeding from strike to death of prey and seen a grown mouse die in as little as seven seconds! Which is rapid by any standards!

So the point is, because the Cat-Eyed Snake is placcid and easy to handle, and smaller than it's aggressive Mangrove cousin, it is pressumed to be harmless. Personally I believe this species to be venomous in the extreme. However, no serious research appears to have been done.

So guys, any of you had dealings or experience with opistoglyphous snake species?

[KITKAT]

I have no experience with any of these snakes, but I would say you should do the research, find a college prof or herpetologist willing to co-author with you, and publish!

(I am published in mammalogy by this method... I am the only North American to date, to observe caravanning behavior in a North American species of shrew.)

[CrazyHedgehog]

no, but when you publish your book James, can I have a signed copy?:p

[drache]

me too, me too please

[adamanteus]

That sounds like an awful lot of work, for a book that very few people would want to read! I only wanted to chat about it, not become an author!:rolleyes:

[drache]

okay, that's good too
you guys chat
I'll sit back, listen and learn

[adamanteus]

Actually, I already wrote a book once, a few years ago. The title is longer than the book!
"A Guide to the Distinction Between Venomous and Non-Venomous Snake Species".
I sold the book and the publishing rights to the MOD, so it's not on general sale.

[adamanteus]

I would say you should do the research.

I would love to do the research, but there is the problem of availability of Boiga cyanea in the UK. If anybody knows where I can obtain this species again, I'd like hear about it.

[KITKAT]

That sounds like an awful lot of work, for a book that very few people would want to read! I only wanted to chat about it, not become an author!:rolleyes:

Clarification...

When I said "publish" I was not talking about BOOKS. My own article on shrew behavior was published in the Journal of Mammalogy. I got nothing financial from it, only the satisfaction of contributing to scientific knowlege.

I am sure there are scientific journals that would welcome a research results article on this subject, and that is what I referred to when I said you could do the research and publish.;)

[adamanteus]

These past few weeks I've been thinking about what you said, KITKAT. And you know what, I might just do it. After the summer, when I've finished spending all my hard earned on baby Garters I'm going to build a taller, arboreal viv and try to obtain Boiga cyanea again.

If anyone in the UK or Europe knows where I can get them, I'm delighted to hear from you.

Maybe some of our newer members have had dealings with opistoglyphous snakes, and may have comments to add here?

[Morph]

These past few weeks I've been thinking about what you said, KITKAT. And you know what, I might just do it. After the summer, when I've finished spending all my hard earned on baby Garters I'm going to build a taller, arboreal viv and try to obtain Boiga cyanea again.

If anyone in the UK or Europe knows where I can get them, I'm delighted to hear from you.

Maybe some of our newer members have had dealings with opistoglyphous snakes, and may have comments to add here?

i can't help you really, being a new snake keeper, but i do look forward to your studies and findings. i have always longed to get published for something scientific, as apposed to my poetry, but i wouldn't have a clue about how to set up the appropriate studies.

if you need any help with research then let me know. i spend a lot of time on the net, as you know, so i can spend all the time in the world digging up all kinds of stuff for you.

if i cant do it myself then i'd settle for helping someone else :)

[adamanteus]

if you need any help with research then let me know. i spend a lot of time on the net, as you know


Thanks for the offer, Morph.;) I was just reading through a few web-sites relating to these snakes and I thought I'd share this classic quote..............

"Boiga is part of the viper family and so has the dreaded poison fang at the back of the throat". Hahahaha!

So, you have to be careful where you gather your information from. The internet, I find, is a minefield of nonsense and mis-information.:)

I found another site offering "stock photos" of Boiga cyanea. The picture on offer was of Gonyosoma oxycephala!

[Lulu Bennett]

james, i have found a site that may beable to help. the sell some reptiles that a DWA licence is needed for? well any way its Home (http://www.tinyboas.co.uk) they might beable to help. i don't know if they could get you the Boiga cyanea that you are after.hope this helps xxx

[adamanteus]

Thanks, Louise, that's really good of you.:) The species I'm looking for isn't listed, but it looks like a pretty good starting point for my search. I'll contact them and see if they can help me. Thanks again.;) X

[Lulu Bennett]

well really morph had a hand in me finding it. it was a link off the exreptile.com website that morph just give me for the exeter reptile show lol its fate!! lol but it does say that if he hasn't got what you want the just contact him and he will do what he can to get hold of it. they even have a diamond back, WOW! :D

[ScimitarX]

One of our friends recently purchased a white-lipped catsnake( not familiar with the scientific names but know its a Boiga) hes finding it a good challenge to keep because of its rather long strike reach.he's also told us its quite nervous, Hes very fond of unusual colubrids. Next time i see him i could ask him a few more questions about it if you like.

[adamanteus]

One of our friends recently purchased a white-lipped catsnake( not familiar with the scientific names but know its a Boiga) hes finding it a good challenge to keep because of its rather long strike reach.he's also told us its quite nervous, Hes very fond of unusual colubrids. Next time i see him i could ask him a few more questions about it if you like.

Claire, please ask him if he would be interested in direct contact with me. But yes, ask him millions of questions!:D

[ScimitarX]

ok, he is goin on holiday though so may be awhile till i do talk to him, unless he comes to us to be some reptile equipment off us.

[adamanteus]

Thanks Claire...the first question must be "Where did you get it?":D

[CrazyHedgehog]

You have been to Hamm before haven't you James...

just wait till you get there!!

[adamanteus]

You think I'll find Boiga there?:eek:

[CrazyHedgehog]

Is it legal? it will probably be there..
They have A whole room full of dangerous snakes...still in easy to open plastic boxes!!

[adamanteus]

The one I'm after isn't considered dangerous. It is back-fanged but not on the DWA list. Now I am excited!

[Morph]

The one I'm after isn't considered dangerous. It is back-fanged but not on the DWA list. Now I am excited!


i really hope you get what you want. its always really nice to have things work out :)

[adamanteus]

Thanks Morph. I've had it before, so it is "out there".

[ScimitarX]

He got his snake from Shropshire exotics, they do a lot of venomous stuff, he actually went to get a false water cobra and ended up with the catsnake as well:D

Welcome to Shropshire Exotics. The one-stop shop for all your Exotic pets needs. (http://www.shropshire-exotics.co.uk/)

Thats their website, though the stocklist is not up to date.

[ScimitarX]

I passed on your email address to my friend and he seemed very interested in talking to you so hopefullly he will be in touch with you soon.

[adamanteus]

Claire, I was going to tell you by PM, but I didn't notice you were on-line.......Paul and I already swapped a couple of e-mails. Thanks for the contact.;)

[GarterGirl]

no, but when you publish your book James, can I have a signed copy?:p

Me too!
Me too!

[adamanteus]

If I ever publish, I'll pay you guys to take it!

[Sid]

If I ever publish, I'll pay you guys to take it!

:p James, you know darn well that we WILL remember that comment.

Sid

[Lulu Bennett]

James i have printed that bit off just incase you forget :D

[loxocemus]

i have a female philodryas baroni, shes just over a year old now had her just less than a year, has only tried to bite on one occasion, which was very recently. im trying to move her from a box to a cage, but she hates the cage, thier very shy timid animals, anyway i had to get her out of the cage for routine maintenance and she struck twice at my hand neither bite landing, she was under stress though and i have no problems or fears of handling her freehand.
needless to say she is back in her beloved 64lt really useful box tonight :-)

[adamanteus]

That's a nice snake, Edward. I had spotted it in your avatar when you first joined. I saw one of these beauties in a pet shop down south recently....£300-:eek:

[Thamnophis]

James, do you know the article DeLisle, Harold F., 1981. Venemous or not. Herpetology, vol. 11 (3): 1-19.
I do not have it anymore, but maybe you can order it in a library or so.

I used it, with some own experiences, to write an article (in Dutch) for Litteratura serpentium, Volume 4 (2), march 1984..
Snake Society (http://www.snakesociety.nl/)
Online (in Dutch) you can find it here:
Giftig of niet? (http://people.zeelandnet.nl/sleijpenfo/reptikels/giftigofniet.htm)

[adamanteus]

I wish I could read Dutch, Fons! The only things I recognised were your name and the snakes' scientific names! I don't know the article you refferred to, but I will look it up. Thanks.